beccaelizabeth (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
beccaelizabeth) wrote2019-11-26 08:22 pm
beccaelizabeth) wrote2019-11-26 08:22 pm
Entry tags:
Fantasy races
I am not keen on the descriptions of half orcs and half elves in Pathfinder.
In some games orcs have a bad reputation because they were slaves of an evil regime and once they're free they can be much nicer people.
In several settings orcs have been driven out of their original homes and are left with the kind of land where they struggle to even survive. That can put anybody in a bad mood.
But once they're half orcs raised in towns, they should have all the options their human parent does. You'd think. But no, they struggle with their mixed heritage. "Half orcs inner conflicts make them prone to cruelty and loneliness, with ferocious tempers and burning desire to survive" it says, like that's new. But it's like the rules think this is something about being a half orc, rather than being a half orc in a society where "humans and most other races see half orcs as unfortunate and unwanted progeny born of violence and perversion". Indeed, even in areas with less human prejudice, "half orcs often find it difficult to shed their savage natures and adapt to the world of humans."
I understand the book wants to set up conflicts as adventure hooks everywhere and every land will have enemies and so forth, but it doesn't present alternatives. Within the rules you can be a half orc priest with a high wisdom and intelligence score. Which makes all the rest about how humans treat half orcs plain prejudice. But the write ups never point that out.
If half orcs had a biological tendency to oose their temoer there would be a game mechanic for it. And there isn't. So it's all bad rep. They get a bonus to Intimidate and a kind of stubborn refusal to die that is quite admirable, but they have the same choice of reactions as everyone else. The write ups say "Impatient, impulsive, greedy, prone to violence when frustrated, and often none too bright" but the game rules dont enforce that, so that's just their reputation. "half orcs nevertheless embody the full range of human emotion and imagination." Indeed, in the rules there's nothing to say they're less than or very much other than human.
But the Inner Sea Worldguide says stuff like "throughout their long history of enslavement and abuse at the hands of other races" without presenting alternwtives for them, or pointing out this is, you know, bad. The guide just says savage natures.
Put it all together, history of enslavement, mixed race descendents of people who used to rule the land but are now confined to desolate wilds, and writing it up like orcs are evil by nature and half orcs savage just... does not look good. Looks plenty racist. Just racism painted green.
Which you can infer from the text, so hey, maybe the intent is to set up challenges for player characters.
... but it don't look good.
Half elves are a different kind of creepy.
being generally attractive is a weird idea from the get go. I mean, we have seen fandom, we know their are huge numbers of people who when presented with elves and dwarves and hobbits all standing together will go for the hobbits. this is not a hypothetical. so how can any body be considered generally attractive?
but slightly creeping me out today is how the description puts generally attractive next to
"rarely put on weight no matter what they eat"
I mean, that sounds like a food problem, not a feature. weight is for energy? where do elves keep theirs? are they subsisting on magic? because there are rules in GURPS for beings that subsist on magic, mana dependent, but there's mana dead zones on Golarion so if elves or half elves need magic then they'd get sick there. If they don't need magic then we're back to, where are they storing their energy?
what if they want to gain weight?
what if they're going polar exploring and want an insulating layer?
I understand the point here was just to say they're usually built skinny
but it's put next to attractive
and that's just weird.
Also, the idea that this particular set of mixed race kids are rejected from jealousy
because people consider elves better and half elves more attractive and so jealous
is just...
I am not comfortable with that.
If either entry talked about lifespan then it would make more sense.
Half orcs are counted adults at 14 and can go adventuring at 15. They're middle aged at 30, old at 45, Venerable at 60 and dead of old age by anywhere between 62 and 80.
The human equivalents in this medievalish world are middle aged at 35, old at 53, venerable at 70, dead by 72 to 90.
Half elves are only full adults at 20 and adventurers at 21, but middle age waits until 62, after their half orc friends might age to natural death. Old at 93, venerable at 125, natural death anywhere between 128 and 185.
You get some serious variability in life stage and behaviour that way.
Also, who wouldn't want their kids to be half elves? Elves, obviously, because elves would barely expect to be adults (110, and actual decades of training to adventurer) when half elves die. But humans get nithing but advantage from it, far as I can see.
Orcs? Orcs do not live long at all. They're middle aged at 20 and dead by 41 to 60 at the very outside. So any orc society is going to be built of 'adult' 11 year olds taking guidance from twenty year olds who maybe might listen to theur forty year old elders.
It's like that Stargate Atlantis where everyone is kids. But a bit more Lord of the Flies. The time constraints seem like a significant factor in the 'savagery'.
... can orcs live longer with better medical care? who knows, depends what story you want to write. maybe being stuck in the barely surviving cold dark bits of the world is holding them back.
Half orcs have to cope with a deadline.
And with being on average younger than humans who look about the same, if ageing is visually similar between races.
If half orcs are a lot younger than the people they're being measured again, they're going to seem impulsive and immature. If as a 'race' they're *all* young, comparing the average human to the average half orc is going to have an age gap involved.
The age thing should come up, is what I'm saying.
But in game mechanical terms each of thise age boundaries comes with increased intelligence, charisma, and wisdom, which actually means orcs and half orcs learn faster than us?
And half elves slower.
So which way up should the jealousy go there?
And by what standard are half orcs dim?
Those rules do not fit together.
If skills take a standard between races length of time to learn then the longer lived races wiuld start with aaaalllll the skill ranks, but the orcs would be at serious disadvantage both in learning and living long enough to pass it on.
But that isn't how that works either, the time to be a trained adventurer adjusts along with lifespan.
The rules dont support the views of other races that are in the cultural write ups. Orcs learn fast, and have to because old age is catching up faster. Elves learn really really slow. 2d6 years to get Trained as a half orc and 10d6 for an elf. Why would humans see orcs as none too bright and elves as wise? Don't make sense.
Has to be a whole heap of prejudice and some weird cultural ha gups, plus seeing things like 'has really old cities' or 'driven into the wilderness' as reflecting their intelligence or ability to learn, which the rules dont agree with at all.
... I kind of reread Speaker For The Dead the other day looking for quotes and I have Thoughts about the Prime Directive and the idea that being smarter and being newer are in any way connected.
Also I bring too much Star Trek to these fantasy games to ever be satisfied with the rules.
So many pages of combat rules and mostly combat spells, so little room given to Diplomacy.
I want to get a federation going on Golarion, or any place else really. Just meet new people and figure out how to get along.
... in a system that insists being Undead means being evil (and being shadow means being evil)(but you dont have to be evil to use shadow magic) the insistence of the rules and setting is really against the make peace with everyone approach.
... even when the rules don't entirely support the attitudes.
One cool thing in the Pathfinder setting: there is an entire planet for the undead. It's got no air, but undead don't care.
I imagine this is used primarily as setting for horror games
but it ought to be a simple alternative to war
since the undead clearly don't need the same real estate at all.
The game mechanics leave maximum roleplay room to the player, so any playable race can choose any way to be. But they also insist on alignment and list it like it's intrinsic.
Annoying.
I realise I could just play a different game
but that
would involve getting out of bed.
so I keep poking this one.
ah well.
In some games orcs have a bad reputation because they were slaves of an evil regime and once they're free they can be much nicer people.
In several settings orcs have been driven out of their original homes and are left with the kind of land where they struggle to even survive. That can put anybody in a bad mood.
But once they're half orcs raised in towns, they should have all the options their human parent does. You'd think. But no, they struggle with their mixed heritage. "Half orcs inner conflicts make them prone to cruelty and loneliness, with ferocious tempers and burning desire to survive" it says, like that's new. But it's like the rules think this is something about being a half orc, rather than being a half orc in a society where "humans and most other races see half orcs as unfortunate and unwanted progeny born of violence and perversion". Indeed, even in areas with less human prejudice, "half orcs often find it difficult to shed their savage natures and adapt to the world of humans."
I understand the book wants to set up conflicts as adventure hooks everywhere and every land will have enemies and so forth, but it doesn't present alternatives. Within the rules you can be a half orc priest with a high wisdom and intelligence score. Which makes all the rest about how humans treat half orcs plain prejudice. But the write ups never point that out.
If half orcs had a biological tendency to oose their temoer there would be a game mechanic for it. And there isn't. So it's all bad rep. They get a bonus to Intimidate and a kind of stubborn refusal to die that is quite admirable, but they have the same choice of reactions as everyone else. The write ups say "Impatient, impulsive, greedy, prone to violence when frustrated, and often none too bright" but the game rules dont enforce that, so that's just their reputation. "half orcs nevertheless embody the full range of human emotion and imagination." Indeed, in the rules there's nothing to say they're less than or very much other than human.
But the Inner Sea Worldguide says stuff like "throughout their long history of enslavement and abuse at the hands of other races" without presenting alternwtives for them, or pointing out this is, you know, bad. The guide just says savage natures.
Put it all together, history of enslavement, mixed race descendents of people who used to rule the land but are now confined to desolate wilds, and writing it up like orcs are evil by nature and half orcs savage just... does not look good. Looks plenty racist. Just racism painted green.
Which you can infer from the text, so hey, maybe the intent is to set up challenges for player characters.
... but it don't look good.
Half elves are a different kind of creepy.
being generally attractive is a weird idea from the get go. I mean, we have seen fandom, we know their are huge numbers of people who when presented with elves and dwarves and hobbits all standing together will go for the hobbits. this is not a hypothetical. so how can any body be considered generally attractive?
but slightly creeping me out today is how the description puts generally attractive next to
"rarely put on weight no matter what they eat"
I mean, that sounds like a food problem, not a feature. weight is for energy? where do elves keep theirs? are they subsisting on magic? because there are rules in GURPS for beings that subsist on magic, mana dependent, but there's mana dead zones on Golarion so if elves or half elves need magic then they'd get sick there. If they don't need magic then we're back to, where are they storing their energy?
what if they want to gain weight?
what if they're going polar exploring and want an insulating layer?
I understand the point here was just to say they're usually built skinny
but it's put next to attractive
and that's just weird.
Also, the idea that this particular set of mixed race kids are rejected from jealousy
because people consider elves better and half elves more attractive and so jealous
is just...
I am not comfortable with that.
If either entry talked about lifespan then it would make more sense.
Half orcs are counted adults at 14 and can go adventuring at 15. They're middle aged at 30, old at 45, Venerable at 60 and dead of old age by anywhere between 62 and 80.
The human equivalents in this medievalish world are middle aged at 35, old at 53, venerable at 70, dead by 72 to 90.
Half elves are only full adults at 20 and adventurers at 21, but middle age waits until 62, after their half orc friends might age to natural death. Old at 93, venerable at 125, natural death anywhere between 128 and 185.
You get some serious variability in life stage and behaviour that way.
Also, who wouldn't want their kids to be half elves? Elves, obviously, because elves would barely expect to be adults (110, and actual decades of training to adventurer) when half elves die. But humans get nithing but advantage from it, far as I can see.
Orcs? Orcs do not live long at all. They're middle aged at 20 and dead by 41 to 60 at the very outside. So any orc society is going to be built of 'adult' 11 year olds taking guidance from twenty year olds who maybe might listen to theur forty year old elders.
It's like that Stargate Atlantis where everyone is kids. But a bit more Lord of the Flies. The time constraints seem like a significant factor in the 'savagery'.
... can orcs live longer with better medical care? who knows, depends what story you want to write. maybe being stuck in the barely surviving cold dark bits of the world is holding them back.
Half orcs have to cope with a deadline.
And with being on average younger than humans who look about the same, if ageing is visually similar between races.
If half orcs are a lot younger than the people they're being measured again, they're going to seem impulsive and immature. If as a 'race' they're *all* young, comparing the average human to the average half orc is going to have an age gap involved.
The age thing should come up, is what I'm saying.
But in game mechanical terms each of thise age boundaries comes with increased intelligence, charisma, and wisdom, which actually means orcs and half orcs learn faster than us?
And half elves slower.
So which way up should the jealousy go there?
And by what standard are half orcs dim?
Those rules do not fit together.
If skills take a standard between races length of time to learn then the longer lived races wiuld start with aaaalllll the skill ranks, but the orcs would be at serious disadvantage both in learning and living long enough to pass it on.
But that isn't how that works either, the time to be a trained adventurer adjusts along with lifespan.
The rules dont support the views of other races that are in the cultural write ups. Orcs learn fast, and have to because old age is catching up faster. Elves learn really really slow. 2d6 years to get Trained as a half orc and 10d6 for an elf. Why would humans see orcs as none too bright and elves as wise? Don't make sense.
Has to be a whole heap of prejudice and some weird cultural ha gups, plus seeing things like 'has really old cities' or 'driven into the wilderness' as reflecting their intelligence or ability to learn, which the rules dont agree with at all.
... I kind of reread Speaker For The Dead the other day looking for quotes and I have Thoughts about the Prime Directive and the idea that being smarter and being newer are in any way connected.
Also I bring too much Star Trek to these fantasy games to ever be satisfied with the rules.
So many pages of combat rules and mostly combat spells, so little room given to Diplomacy.
I want to get a federation going on Golarion, or any place else really. Just meet new people and figure out how to get along.
... in a system that insists being Undead means being evil (and being shadow means being evil)(but you dont have to be evil to use shadow magic) the insistence of the rules and setting is really against the make peace with everyone approach.
... even when the rules don't entirely support the attitudes.
One cool thing in the Pathfinder setting: there is an entire planet for the undead. It's got no air, but undead don't care.
I imagine this is used primarily as setting for horror games
but it ought to be a simple alternative to war
since the undead clearly don't need the same real estate at all.
The game mechanics leave maximum roleplay room to the player, so any playable race can choose any way to be. But they also insist on alignment and list it like it's intrinsic.
Annoying.
I realise I could just play a different game
but that
would involve getting out of bed.
so I keep poking this one.
ah well.