More Iron Man and Avengers thoughts
Aug. 17th, 2012 10:15 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
beccaelizabethbriefly on Captain America AUs: I'm finding it actually somewhat disturbing when people update Steve just by changing which war he's been in. Because there's nothing in our lifetimes that's like World War II. Just changing the dates and going 'hmmm, what war are we up to now?' ignores the ethical complexities entirely. And it ignores them in a way I worry Captain America could, like using him as propaganda for all the wars ever, like trying to make every war out to be nazis and self defence. It's just wrong.
at great length on Iron Man movies: Watched both movies yesterday with mum.
Oh, Tony. *sighs*
I read a lot of fic, and a lot of fic is about how awesome and wonderful and giving and generous and fun he is, and, well, yeah, but... dude is also a dick. I mean, seriously, in the movies at least he has not got over that. He's mouthy in ways that are hurtful to his targets, he has no respect for... anything, ever, including elected representatives and the idea he's not automatically allowed to do everything that crosses his mind or that he might in fact not be the best for a task and in ways that screw up other people's lives. And he screws Rhodey over a lot. Like, it's not just that he's late for things, though that doesn't help. And it would reflect poorly on the people who have the job of getting him to turn up. It's not just that he makes that joke about spring break, which is in poor taste from so many angles and suggests things that could at the time get a guy fired, however small the possibility. Shutting him out of the fun-vee went so very wrong it's hard to criticise, but really, what was up with that, Rhodey came over to say something about how well the presentation went, Tony shut him out. Is he always like that? Because he's always like that where we've seen him. That's how he treats his best friend? Ignores him, doesn't tell him important things, shuts him out both literal and metaphorical. And then in 2 we can figure we know he's manipulating Rhodey into taking the suit, but he's putting him in a really bad position, while the guy is trying to protect him.
I've seen fic kind of rip into Rhodey for not supporting Tony enough. Seriously? He's there for him, he's always there for him, he keeps looking for him, he turns up to give him awards and thinks he's all kinds of shiny, and he's the guy telling Tony he can be so much more even if he's drunk off his arse and Tony is ignoring him. He's also keen on weapons development while Tony is redefining weapon so his favourite toys don't count. If Tony was actually going pacifist and wanted to quit weapons, Rhodey telling him off about it would be Not Cool. There's an element of problem there. But Tony? Is still building weapons. Call the Iron Man suit what you want, but that thing is the coolest weapon on the planet, enforcing world peace for whole numbers of months, the biggest scary thing around. And Tony, who has up until this point been the drunk screw up and hasn't stopped, seriously, even if his erratic behaviour is driven by fear of imminent death he hasn't told anyone and it's still erratic and then monaco and then party and boom, he's still a mess.... anyway, Tony, setting himself up as privatising world peace, he's trying to do it alone, he's keeping the best weapons for himself. That's not the same thing as not making them. So Rhodey wants him to share. Because Rhodey believes in the uniform, believes it means everyone else in uniform has his back. Tony was supporting that, Tony was supplying them with the means to keep alive, and now he's not. He's just kept it for himself.
Why are we on Tony's side?
... I'm on Tony's side because he makes the big eyes and, you know, must hug. And we know all about his Daddy Issues and the movie goes a long way to make it all very personal. But the post credits thing with Fury opened it out, The Avengers opened it waaaaaay out, it's not just personal, there's a world trying to cope with problems where Iron Man suits could be really, really helpful.
If building a bigger weapon is ever helpful.
If it isn't, Tony shouldn't have the suit. If it is, why should only Tony have the suit?
So... I seem to have talked myself out of liking Tony just by watching how he treats Rhodey.
But he's not only a dick to him, he invites him in too, it's just always on Tony's priorities, because he is the center of his world. He may or may not be working on that.
Rhodey has a suit now. Progress.
Tony wearing the Iron Man suit to party is sort of heart breaky. Like, okay, it's a really cool toy, but not to party in, he's wearing actual armour, that's... he spent that whole movie wearing more and more layers with the hood up right up until he stripped down to the undershirt to invent a new element, Tony wearing clothes is just not a comfortable confident happy Tony, so there he is wearing a suit of armour and the ultimate in shutting people out. To party.
all the hugs, Tony, all the hugs
And then he gets very drunk and kind of violent and I don't like that bit.
If that was his plan it was a suck plan.
He totally stress tested his best friend to breaking point. You don't do that. That's... no.
He's stumbling around and his reaching out looks a hell of a lot like his pushing away.
:-(
Avengers Tony with a house full of nutcases he can't break is way more fun. This is why I never got into Iron Man fic but I read all the Avengers stuff.
Happy was in the movies and yet didn't speak much. He and Tony do stuff together. Race cars, do boxing. Also Happy protects Tony, with the getting him through crowds, but also the being trusted with the suitcase suit. He headed directly into danger and he's got no superpowers of his own. He's loyal as hell. But the Tony quip about Pepper getting both the kids in the divorce, that's Tony being actually hurt, because Happy protected Pepper at the party, and he's working for Pepper now, and while this is how Tony set things up he possibly hasn't thought it through. I read wiki so I know a little of how that one works out in the comics, kind of sort of, but movies haven't done that. Right now, Happy is on Tony's side, willing to head into danger for him. And do more fun stuff, like when women were trying to get Tony's attention Happy would give his verdict before Tony turned around. Which, okay, *facepalm*, but it's there, that's a thing they do.
Happy is kind of vanished in fic. Which is weird.
But I was thinking watching the films again that him and Tony are totally bloke mode friendship. They're not going to sit around and talk about anything, they'll just do stuff. Fanfic, being text, isn't going to spend as much time on 'they drive across country in a fast car and don't actually say anything but they're having fun'.
Pepper and Tony... okay, reasons for Pepper to leave Tony clearly include the raging panic about him being shot and blown up and stomped on and hey, asking her to help kill someone, that could totally be a thing, that's... really, she knew Obi, but the movies are never going to spend even a minute on the emotional fallout of pressing that button. And Tony is a dick, he gave away the art, he never cared about the art, he didn't give it to her he just gave it away, and she felt strongly enough about that to assert part ownership of that collection... no, not ownership, but responsibility. Our art. She spent years on that, and he just gave it away. Not understanding other people's priorities, needs, desires, that's kind of all we've seen of how he treats his friends. Tony has new priorities, Tony has decided the mission is everything, Tony has decided the Expo and the legacy is everything, hey, there goes everyone else's life. Pepper understands that as his assistant, but as his girlfriend? Ouch.
There's room to read Pepper as just as starving as Tony. As just waiting for whatever Tony randomly remembers to throw her way. Even if she won't let him walk all over her, there's a lot of room for how he treats her to be really not cool.
And reasons Pepper should get out now: That kiss at the end of Iron Man 2? She quits, so he kisses her. He's told her he needs her, she's all he's got, he's said that. That's not love. It's hunger, and it's hunger for her, and having Tony Stark actually completely focused on her for once... oh, so tempting. I'd go there, given the chance. But that's Tony trying to keep what he needs. He's giving sex to get love, and not even love any different than they've had, he's trying to keep his Pepper.
But he gave her a job, he gave her presents, he gave her the company, and that didn't keep her, so hey, kisses! Maybe that will work!
You know, if you want a depressing reading on that.
And the bit in her office where she stops him because if he says 'I' just one more time...?
Yeah, if their whole relationship is like that, run, Pepper, run.
And maybe it's not. He tries to give her all the shiny. Maybe they find a balance that works for them.
But maybe Tony has never been loved in his life, doesn't have a model for that that isn't some kind of economic transaction, and is just one sucking hole of mostly drunk need.
And, also, a hero.
Don't get me wrong, I seem to have talked myself out of liking him, but that's partly because it's really really easy to like him. So needy! Give hugs! ... there's so many ways that can work out poorly.
But he's definitely a hero. The thing with the nuke is not really ambiguous. Dude jumped on a really big grenade.
Given that using the suit was hastening his death by poisoning in Iron Man 2, and that he did jump on the bomb, Pepper is right to worry about him, because that's closer to suicidal than self sacrificing, he doesn't think he should have his life except for to do this, he's trying to spend his life on this, it's not good for him.
But hey, classic hero stuff.
That whole 'Iron Man yes Tony Stark no' bit, that's how the inside of Tony's head is working lately.
And that's the other reason he wore the Iron Man suit to the party. It's his own birthday party, but he thinks people only actually like the Iron Man.
And he's probably right.
All the hugs. All of them.
The people that were in Tony's life long term, the ones from before the cave, they've stuck around while he was drunk and a dick and they might have been telling him no but they've been helping him do it and Rhodey at least could be talked into yes (drunk on a plane).
If Tony doesn't like who he was before, how does that shape how he feels about his friends?
I kind of can't trust them because maybe they could see the man he can be, but they were drinking with the other dude.
(reasons Tony gets along with Banner? He's got at least two faces going on there.)
And again I'm back to Avengers fic, because they know the guy he's trying to be, and that's the guy they'll be there for.
But still, friends who stick with you long term, not to be sniffed at.
I hope movie Tony properly quits drinking. I always end up back at that. It won't be the end of his problems but it'll surely help.
Tony and his friends are a big tangle and they're only just starting to sort themselves out.
If 'generous and supportive friend' turns out to be one of Tony's good qualities, then yaays. And I can see that happening. He's already a self sacrificing team mate. He donates and gives stuff away. And he designs stuff for the team. So, yeah, he'll become that.
But he hasn't been entirely good to his friends up until now.
Maybe Pepper can get the best of the new and improved him... but she needs to draw and enforce some lines about that, because the failure modes on that relationship are going to crash hard. And mostly by being just like they've always been before.
Giving her the company should equal out the power relation a whole lot, but that whole I quit / I don't accept bit? Makes it weird again.
I don't know. If it works, great, but if it works the way we've seen so far, really and seriously NOT great and not even what Tony needs. Tony thinks he needs Pepper, that Pepper is all he has, and he's giving her everything but he doesn't like himself very much so he's pretty convinced it's not enough. That's... the consequences of that crashing out... he may already be the guy trying to find something to die for, and there's always further to fall. That could fail so hard.
But for the exact same reasons, because he's needed her, she's always been there, he's been a shit to her, she knows him... if it works out? If she is convinced he is the man he's trying to be? That could go so great.
But it seems to me it's more likely he needs her validation than that he actually loves her in the ways she needs.
We don't know Pepper enough to figure that out.
Maybe he's everything she wants with added bonus sex now.
My fic preferences are pretty consistent, soldier/scientist m/m saving the world. So possibly I'm reading everything only in the ways that set up my favourite pairings. Buuuuut... that's what I'm seeing.
If I applied this much brain to college I'd believe I'd actually pass this year.
:eyeroll:
at great length on Iron Man movies: Watched both movies yesterday with mum.
Oh, Tony. *sighs*
I read a lot of fic, and a lot of fic is about how awesome and wonderful and giving and generous and fun he is, and, well, yeah, but... dude is also a dick. I mean, seriously, in the movies at least he has not got over that. He's mouthy in ways that are hurtful to his targets, he has no respect for... anything, ever, including elected representatives and the idea he's not automatically allowed to do everything that crosses his mind or that he might in fact not be the best for a task and in ways that screw up other people's lives. And he screws Rhodey over a lot. Like, it's not just that he's late for things, though that doesn't help. And it would reflect poorly on the people who have the job of getting him to turn up. It's not just that he makes that joke about spring break, which is in poor taste from so many angles and suggests things that could at the time get a guy fired, however small the possibility. Shutting him out of the fun-vee went so very wrong it's hard to criticise, but really, what was up with that, Rhodey came over to say something about how well the presentation went, Tony shut him out. Is he always like that? Because he's always like that where we've seen him. That's how he treats his best friend? Ignores him, doesn't tell him important things, shuts him out both literal and metaphorical. And then in 2 we can figure we know he's manipulating Rhodey into taking the suit, but he's putting him in a really bad position, while the guy is trying to protect him.
I've seen fic kind of rip into Rhodey for not supporting Tony enough. Seriously? He's there for him, he's always there for him, he keeps looking for him, he turns up to give him awards and thinks he's all kinds of shiny, and he's the guy telling Tony he can be so much more even if he's drunk off his arse and Tony is ignoring him. He's also keen on weapons development while Tony is redefining weapon so his favourite toys don't count. If Tony was actually going pacifist and wanted to quit weapons, Rhodey telling him off about it would be Not Cool. There's an element of problem there. But Tony? Is still building weapons. Call the Iron Man suit what you want, but that thing is the coolest weapon on the planet, enforcing world peace for whole numbers of months, the biggest scary thing around. And Tony, who has up until this point been the drunk screw up and hasn't stopped, seriously, even if his erratic behaviour is driven by fear of imminent death he hasn't told anyone and it's still erratic and then monaco and then party and boom, he's still a mess.... anyway, Tony, setting himself up as privatising world peace, he's trying to do it alone, he's keeping the best weapons for himself. That's not the same thing as not making them. So Rhodey wants him to share. Because Rhodey believes in the uniform, believes it means everyone else in uniform has his back. Tony was supporting that, Tony was supplying them with the means to keep alive, and now he's not. He's just kept it for himself.
Why are we on Tony's side?
... I'm on Tony's side because he makes the big eyes and, you know, must hug. And we know all about his Daddy Issues and the movie goes a long way to make it all very personal. But the post credits thing with Fury opened it out, The Avengers opened it waaaaaay out, it's not just personal, there's a world trying to cope with problems where Iron Man suits could be really, really helpful.
If building a bigger weapon is ever helpful.
If it isn't, Tony shouldn't have the suit. If it is, why should only Tony have the suit?
So... I seem to have talked myself out of liking Tony just by watching how he treats Rhodey.
But he's not only a dick to him, he invites him in too, it's just always on Tony's priorities, because he is the center of his world. He may or may not be working on that.
Rhodey has a suit now. Progress.
Tony wearing the Iron Man suit to party is sort of heart breaky. Like, okay, it's a really cool toy, but not to party in, he's wearing actual armour, that's... he spent that whole movie wearing more and more layers with the hood up right up until he stripped down to the undershirt to invent a new element, Tony wearing clothes is just not a comfortable confident happy Tony, so there he is wearing a suit of armour and the ultimate in shutting people out. To party.
all the hugs, Tony, all the hugs
And then he gets very drunk and kind of violent and I don't like that bit.
If that was his plan it was a suck plan.
He totally stress tested his best friend to breaking point. You don't do that. That's... no.
He's stumbling around and his reaching out looks a hell of a lot like his pushing away.
:-(
Avengers Tony with a house full of nutcases he can't break is way more fun. This is why I never got into Iron Man fic but I read all the Avengers stuff.
Happy was in the movies and yet didn't speak much. He and Tony do stuff together. Race cars, do boxing. Also Happy protects Tony, with the getting him through crowds, but also the being trusted with the suitcase suit. He headed directly into danger and he's got no superpowers of his own. He's loyal as hell. But the Tony quip about Pepper getting both the kids in the divorce, that's Tony being actually hurt, because Happy protected Pepper at the party, and he's working for Pepper now, and while this is how Tony set things up he possibly hasn't thought it through. I read wiki so I know a little of how that one works out in the comics, kind of sort of, but movies haven't done that. Right now, Happy is on Tony's side, willing to head into danger for him. And do more fun stuff, like when women were trying to get Tony's attention Happy would give his verdict before Tony turned around. Which, okay, *facepalm*, but it's there, that's a thing they do.
Happy is kind of vanished in fic. Which is weird.
But I was thinking watching the films again that him and Tony are totally bloke mode friendship. They're not going to sit around and talk about anything, they'll just do stuff. Fanfic, being text, isn't going to spend as much time on 'they drive across country in a fast car and don't actually say anything but they're having fun'.
Pepper and Tony... okay, reasons for Pepper to leave Tony clearly include the raging panic about him being shot and blown up and stomped on and hey, asking her to help kill someone, that could totally be a thing, that's... really, she knew Obi, but the movies are never going to spend even a minute on the emotional fallout of pressing that button. And Tony is a dick, he gave away the art, he never cared about the art, he didn't give it to her he just gave it away, and she felt strongly enough about that to assert part ownership of that collection... no, not ownership, but responsibility. Our art. She spent years on that, and he just gave it away. Not understanding other people's priorities, needs, desires, that's kind of all we've seen of how he treats his friends. Tony has new priorities, Tony has decided the mission is everything, Tony has decided the Expo and the legacy is everything, hey, there goes everyone else's life. Pepper understands that as his assistant, but as his girlfriend? Ouch.
There's room to read Pepper as just as starving as Tony. As just waiting for whatever Tony randomly remembers to throw her way. Even if she won't let him walk all over her, there's a lot of room for how he treats her to be really not cool.
And reasons Pepper should get out now: That kiss at the end of Iron Man 2? She quits, so he kisses her. He's told her he needs her, she's all he's got, he's said that. That's not love. It's hunger, and it's hunger for her, and having Tony Stark actually completely focused on her for once... oh, so tempting. I'd go there, given the chance. But that's Tony trying to keep what he needs. He's giving sex to get love, and not even love any different than they've had, he's trying to keep his Pepper.
But he gave her a job, he gave her presents, he gave her the company, and that didn't keep her, so hey, kisses! Maybe that will work!
You know, if you want a depressing reading on that.
And the bit in her office where she stops him because if he says 'I' just one more time...?
Yeah, if their whole relationship is like that, run, Pepper, run.
And maybe it's not. He tries to give her all the shiny. Maybe they find a balance that works for them.
But maybe Tony has never been loved in his life, doesn't have a model for that that isn't some kind of economic transaction, and is just one sucking hole of mostly drunk need.
And, also, a hero.
Don't get me wrong, I seem to have talked myself out of liking him, but that's partly because it's really really easy to like him. So needy! Give hugs! ... there's so many ways that can work out poorly.
But he's definitely a hero. The thing with the nuke is not really ambiguous. Dude jumped on a really big grenade.
Given that using the suit was hastening his death by poisoning in Iron Man 2, and that he did jump on the bomb, Pepper is right to worry about him, because that's closer to suicidal than self sacrificing, he doesn't think he should have his life except for to do this, he's trying to spend his life on this, it's not good for him.
But hey, classic hero stuff.
That whole 'Iron Man yes Tony Stark no' bit, that's how the inside of Tony's head is working lately.
And that's the other reason he wore the Iron Man suit to the party. It's his own birthday party, but he thinks people only actually like the Iron Man.
And he's probably right.
All the hugs. All of them.
The people that were in Tony's life long term, the ones from before the cave, they've stuck around while he was drunk and a dick and they might have been telling him no but they've been helping him do it and Rhodey at least could be talked into yes (drunk on a plane).
If Tony doesn't like who he was before, how does that shape how he feels about his friends?
I kind of can't trust them because maybe they could see the man he can be, but they were drinking with the other dude.
(reasons Tony gets along with Banner? He's got at least two faces going on there.)
And again I'm back to Avengers fic, because they know the guy he's trying to be, and that's the guy they'll be there for.
But still, friends who stick with you long term, not to be sniffed at.
I hope movie Tony properly quits drinking. I always end up back at that. It won't be the end of his problems but it'll surely help.
Tony and his friends are a big tangle and they're only just starting to sort themselves out.
If 'generous and supportive friend' turns out to be one of Tony's good qualities, then yaays. And I can see that happening. He's already a self sacrificing team mate. He donates and gives stuff away. And he designs stuff for the team. So, yeah, he'll become that.
But he hasn't been entirely good to his friends up until now.
Maybe Pepper can get the best of the new and improved him... but she needs to draw and enforce some lines about that, because the failure modes on that relationship are going to crash hard. And mostly by being just like they've always been before.
Giving her the company should equal out the power relation a whole lot, but that whole I quit / I don't accept bit? Makes it weird again.
I don't know. If it works, great, but if it works the way we've seen so far, really and seriously NOT great and not even what Tony needs. Tony thinks he needs Pepper, that Pepper is all he has, and he's giving her everything but he doesn't like himself very much so he's pretty convinced it's not enough. That's... the consequences of that crashing out... he may already be the guy trying to find something to die for, and there's always further to fall. That could fail so hard.
But for the exact same reasons, because he's needed her, she's always been there, he's been a shit to her, she knows him... if it works out? If she is convinced he is the man he's trying to be? That could go so great.
But it seems to me it's more likely he needs her validation than that he actually loves her in the ways she needs.
We don't know Pepper enough to figure that out.
Maybe he's everything she wants with added bonus sex now.
My fic preferences are pretty consistent, soldier/scientist m/m saving the world. So possibly I'm reading everything only in the ways that set up my favourite pairings. Buuuuut... that's what I'm seeing.
If I applied this much brain to college I'd believe I'd actually pass this year.
:eyeroll:
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2012-08-17 12:43 pm (UTC)(reasons Tony gets along with Banner? He's got at least two faces going on there.)
But he knows it's the same guy with some work. Which is why he's trying to tell Bruce that. It's not two different guys, it's one guy with a problem.
Re Pepper. I left you a comment, we discussed this some time ago. I think they have a kind of codependency that's almost family-like, but wouldn't really work for a dating situation, at least not in a way I'm politically comfortable with. He needs her, and she loves him, but with all due respect to sexual attraction, just no.
I leave all these long detailed comments here, is that okay? Is that a thing to be done? I can't tell.
no subject
Date: 2012-08-17 12:54 pm (UTC)I remember your Pepper comment, yes. Still agree. They work when they've got each other's backs.
Yes, same guy with some work, one guy with a problem.
and yeah, characters that need All The Fixing need all the stories about it too.
... stumbling on stories that think they're already fine the way they are is awkward though.
no subject
Date: 2012-08-17 01:08 pm (UTC)But not so much with their fronts.
(*snortle* Sorry, I'm five.)
stories that think they're already fine the way they are
Well, they are fine as they are to a degree. No one is perfect, and as long as you call it as you see it, it's okay to write a story about a guy who is a dick, or a guy who wants to kill everyone. That's an angle too. I guess the problem is when you write someone who is a dick but pretend that's the Right Way to be... oh wait, just like almost all popular media does with their heroes. You know, the thing where if bad guy does X, it's bad, if good guy does the exact same thing, it's forgiveable or admirable (Loki killed 80 people? really? How many did each of the Avengers kill? and while we're at it, can we bring up Buffy, and everything she's done that no one else is allowed because she's Chosen and so it's okay?). But now we are heading into bitterland, and I do not want to be back in bitterland. Just sayin', heroes getting forgiven isn't a fanfic thing, it's a general life thing, both fiction and, sadly, reality.
*wears Ethan for a reason*
Date: 2012-08-17 07:48 pm (UTC)consistency in rule sets is not humanity's strong point.
Re: *wears Ethan for a reason*
Date: 2012-08-17 08:13 pm (UTC)...Yes. This is one of the first examples that pop into my head, too. I just try to not bring it up and be obvious about it. GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, JOSS DOES.
And I'll add this one quote from Good Omens, because it's too true, and too close to RL for comfort:
"Maybe some terrorist-?" Aziraphale began.
"Not one of ours," said Crowley.
"Or ours," said Aziraphale. "Although ours are freedom fighters, of course."
no subject
Date: 2012-08-17 10:31 pm (UTC)Tony & Rhodey: there's a good (again IMHO) debate post on tumblr that hashes over both Tony's and Rhodey's sides in that IM1 argument, click here for that.
~
Relevant
Date: 2012-08-18 10:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-08-19 06:41 pm (UTC)http://greatbriton.tumblr.com/post/29502325131/the-point-of-tony-stark-is-to-give-you-a-fucking
The point.
no subject
Date: 2012-08-17 01:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-08-17 02:51 pm (UTC)