Flash episode 2x03 Family of Rogues
Oct. 21st, 2016 11:55 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
beccaelizabeth(Trigger warnings for Lewis Snart, child abuse, that continues into adulthood, and the violence in this episode.)
I think I am not reacting to this one scene in The Flash quite as the writers intended
cause Barry tells Cold there is good in him and he knows he wants to be better
and I want to punch him in his smug little face.
I mean, I slept on it,and I'm still feeling mostly that.
Because the context is sitting in prison either side of the glass, right after Cold kills his own father. I mean, *that* as his exemplar of potential good is just fucked up right there. But Barry just...
Barry leads with saying last time he was in prison he was visiting his dad, and Len from the other side of the glass says yeah, me too. Which is actually the exact point Barry felt connected to him on, first Rogues episode. Both had fathers in prison.
And, right there, both cared enough to go visit, which obviously no one can require him to do, so, he wanted to. Lisa says Len would never willingly work with their dad, that just being near him means he's in trouble, but Len apparently voluntarily communicates with the dude. So, add it up.
Add in maybe some of the things. Len told Barry earlier in the episode, on the principle that you give the advice you'd want to get yourself. He doesn't just tell him go away, he tells him "things are complicated with family" and "Don't waste your time trying to save people who don't want to be saved.".
And maybe it's just Joe's plot about an addict in the family that reminded me, but I'm betting the comparison is deliberate - sometimes you love someone who doesn't want to be saved, who keeps doing what they're doing no matter how many times it lands them in rehab, or prison. Because you can see Len trying to give his dad advice, come up with a better plan, help him. And, yeah, try to stick to his agreement with Flash and not kill people, but just pretend his relationship with his father is older and stronger and twistier. His dad doesn't want to be saved, but how many times has Len been there, trying to do that? Or visiting in prison, after that doesn't work?
And then there's "Nobody talks to my son that way. Nobody.". I mean, we know Lewis talks to him that way and worse, we know Len is obvious and almost clumsy getting out of the way so his father won't touch him, and we know that under normal circumstances Len can very much take care of himself... but here's the thing about growing up with a monster: sometimes he's the only monster you've got. He's your monster, and that means you've only got to worry about him. So he hit his kids, but right here he's being pretty much irrationally protective of them. So how does that dynamic play out? Along with being told it's all lessons, framing the abuse as help. It ends up conflicted, even if that don't seem rational. Like, monster dad is still dad, still the person looked to to look after, to approve. Lisa reckons Len raised her so she's less attached, but Len didn't have that.
Watch his face when he's with his father and there's never just the one thing going on. *Especially* right at the end.
"You're working with The Flash? I thought you hated him?"
"Not as much as I... hate you."
He doesn't hate the Flash. Best enemies, opponents, sure, but it doesn't simplify that way.
He doesn't only hate his dad.
"He broke my sister's heart. Only fair I break his."
His sister's. Right. Because Len doesn't have a heart.
And so far so many reasons to like this episode and adore Wentworth Miller's acting.
But Barry is right there for this. He saw Len's face same like we did. But he just doesn't get it.
And to some extent, it's so in character, I'm glad for him. He doesn't get it because his parents were awesome, so he doesn't grok how it can feel when 'home' is the worst place. It could also be cause people told him his father was bad and his memories of lightning were just a cover for abusive violence, but he loved his dad so he wouldn't think of him that way; because his father really is innocent, and proven to be so, he can just stick with thinking all that about conflicted feelings was stupid.
Seems like the writers get it though. Mixing this with telling Iris her memories of her mom were false. That she loved someone that was just bad for her, and that Joe tried to make sure she would never doubt she was loved or start wondering if it was about not being good enough. Barry compares with the Snart family but not that part. But Lewis explicitly makes all his own behaviour about his kids not being good enough, which makes him vile, but his kids conflicted.
And Len doesn't kill Lewis for, what, forty odd years? But when he *does* Barry gives him the talk about how there's good in him and he knows he wants to be better, "more than just a criminal". Like, I know Barry has huge great levers sticking out begging older guys 'validate me!' and people offer what they want from others, but, maybe it's a little tacky at this precise moment? Len's done something that's fucked up by his own fairly lenient standards, and now the hero acts like that is 'more'?
So that last conversation in prison, Barry leads with visiting dad, makes that connection, then is all 'yet you killed him'. Len snaps back "He deserved it" ... and Barry ?laughs? The hell? "Is that funny to you?". Because it's sure as hell not funny to Len, broken hearted and sitting where his dad last sat and probably comparing that 'deserve'. Two career criminals everyone compares. If his dad deserved to die then what does Len deserve?
But that's not Barry's line of thinking. He's noticed Len cares about one whole other person, so now he's impressed. But the way he says it sounds enough like a threat, given everything that just happened to her, that Len answers with his own threat, the mutually assured destruction one. You know my secret? I know yours! Better hope I don't talk in my sleep.
But Barry, he thinks he's in a different conversation. So here's where he does his little speech.
"You won't. Today just proved what I've always known. There's good in you, Snart. And you don't have to admit it to me, but there's a part of you that knows you don't have to let your past define you. A part of you that really wants to be more than just a criminal."
Of all the tone deaf moments to call him Snart.
I mean, which bit of today proved what? Seeing Len kill to protect his sister? Like Len saw his dad kill to 'protect' him?
That wasn't the thing though. The unusual thing, the one that made him *not* like his father? That was how long he *didn't* pull the trigger. Forty years, sure, but also facing off against the Flash with his father's finger on the trigger. Lisa could have died in an instant, but there was still time for dramatic standoff, because Len gave the Flash just that much trust.
If the only one he cares about is Lisa, that doesn't even make sense.
I mean, given that he already iced Barry once this episode and saw he was fine later, it barely makes sense.
Unless he doesn't actually want to hurt him. Or let his dad use him to hurt him. Again.
Len has been on an emotional rollercoaster since this thing started. He's found someone who won't back off on saving him even after Len shoots him - and he watched his dad shoot him. "I'm sorry, Barry." He actually says sorry. Out loud. But he also says Barry's real name, and there's a chance his dad can hear him. So you know how that moment makes emotional sense? If he actually believes that was Barry getting killed. If right then he feels like for the second time in two days, he just watched his dad kill someone.
Someone on his crew. I mean, we've seen him do crew management with bullets before, which apparently he learned at his father's knee, but even Cold didn't do that for someone doing their job right.
So he watches his dad kill his own crew, and kill this guy, this hero, who actually stuck around and stuck his neck out for Len and Lisa. That's the emotional reality of that moment, even if it wears off soon. He knows the Flash can be hit if taken by surprise, he's done it himself, so why not believe?
Len went missing, didn't contact anyone, probably in fear of his father. So his father wouldn't hurt anyone else. And then, Barry, who contacts him and keeps on doing so even after everything and just incidentally proves he'll risk his life for those Len holds dear.
So his dad tells him to shoot the Flash? And Len hesitates. Even at those stakes.
Lisa isn't the only one he cares about.
Or maybe he just needs Lisa safe and knows the only way is to wait for his enemies to sort it out, and has a reasonable suspicion that shooting the hero may interfere with that.
As soon as Lisa's safe he turns around and shoots his dad. Because he hates him more.
But though he doesn't drop the gun he does let Barry take it from him. Because he assumed Lisa was some kind of hostage still? But he was still staring at his dad right then, so probably, because of what he's just done.
Barry though, he's baffled. "Lisa was safe. Why did you do that?"
Lewis hit her since she was seven, and knocked her out a couple nights ago, but Lisa was safe.
Lewis had been in and out of prison their whole lives, but sending him back once more meant Lisa was safe.
Lewis just put a bomb in his daughter's head, something you couldn't even see or know was even done to you, something that could be there anytime and stay forever, and then he got the trigger out to *use* it... but hey, this time, Lisa was safe.
I mean, believing it makes Barry a nice person who believes in law and order, but not believing it makes Len someone who has been living Len's life for forty years.
And I've got to admit, I find abused kids turning around and ending their abusers pretty cathartic.
But it's also kind of a problem for Len, because if the old monster is past saving, well, how is there a chance for the younger one?
And that's what Barry is trying to address. The whole thing where the past doesn't define you and you can still be a hero too. And yet, still, wanting to punch his smug face.
Because he's acting like Len just took down some evildoer, and ignoring he just lost his dad.
TL DR I have a lot of feels about abused kids trying to grow away from their parents, and their parents, and addiction which got brought up in this episode, and Barry and his lack of shades of grey just... keeps putting his foot in it as far as I can see.
Feels rollercoaster.
But writers maybe know that, so okay, punching in the smug face may even be one of the layers of react in there.
And I can stare at Wentworth Miller having feelings for really a lot.
Bad guy still did bad things though.
You know if the whole justice and prisons system worked properly in comics universes they'd end up with hardly anything to do. Vigilante action from both sides of the line only happens because they're convinced the courts and law enforcement officers won't save them.
I prefer those stories where the heroes notice they're breaking the law though. I mean, Barry is so wrong in season one saying the difference is the good guys do it to help people. Bad guys got their people too. But I guess it is why Barry is so smug face thinking it makes a difference now Snart has a 'good' motive.
Heh, look at that gigantic meta trying to pick a fight with one scene I actually really like from an episode where only the science is cringeworthy. Me being fannish again, how I have missed it.
I think I am not reacting to this one scene in The Flash quite as the writers intended
cause Barry tells Cold there is good in him and he knows he wants to be better
and I want to punch him in his smug little face.
I mean, I slept on it,and I'm still feeling mostly that.
Because the context is sitting in prison either side of the glass, right after Cold kills his own father. I mean, *that* as his exemplar of potential good is just fucked up right there. But Barry just...
Barry leads with saying last time he was in prison he was visiting his dad, and Len from the other side of the glass says yeah, me too. Which is actually the exact point Barry felt connected to him on, first Rogues episode. Both had fathers in prison.
And, right there, both cared enough to go visit, which obviously no one can require him to do, so, he wanted to. Lisa says Len would never willingly work with their dad, that just being near him means he's in trouble, but Len apparently voluntarily communicates with the dude. So, add it up.
Add in maybe some of the things. Len told Barry earlier in the episode, on the principle that you give the advice you'd want to get yourself. He doesn't just tell him go away, he tells him "things are complicated with family" and "Don't waste your time trying to save people who don't want to be saved.".
And maybe it's just Joe's plot about an addict in the family that reminded me, but I'm betting the comparison is deliberate - sometimes you love someone who doesn't want to be saved, who keeps doing what they're doing no matter how many times it lands them in rehab, or prison. Because you can see Len trying to give his dad advice, come up with a better plan, help him. And, yeah, try to stick to his agreement with Flash and not kill people, but just pretend his relationship with his father is older and stronger and twistier. His dad doesn't want to be saved, but how many times has Len been there, trying to do that? Or visiting in prison, after that doesn't work?
And then there's "Nobody talks to my son that way. Nobody.". I mean, we know Lewis talks to him that way and worse, we know Len is obvious and almost clumsy getting out of the way so his father won't touch him, and we know that under normal circumstances Len can very much take care of himself... but here's the thing about growing up with a monster: sometimes he's the only monster you've got. He's your monster, and that means you've only got to worry about him. So he hit his kids, but right here he's being pretty much irrationally protective of them. So how does that dynamic play out? Along with being told it's all lessons, framing the abuse as help. It ends up conflicted, even if that don't seem rational. Like, monster dad is still dad, still the person looked to to look after, to approve. Lisa reckons Len raised her so she's less attached, but Len didn't have that.
Watch his face when he's with his father and there's never just the one thing going on. *Especially* right at the end.
"You're working with The Flash? I thought you hated him?"
"Not as much as I... hate you."
He doesn't hate the Flash. Best enemies, opponents, sure, but it doesn't simplify that way.
He doesn't only hate his dad.
"He broke my sister's heart. Only fair I break his."
His sister's. Right. Because Len doesn't have a heart.
And so far so many reasons to like this episode and adore Wentworth Miller's acting.
But Barry is right there for this. He saw Len's face same like we did. But he just doesn't get it.
And to some extent, it's so in character, I'm glad for him. He doesn't get it because his parents were awesome, so he doesn't grok how it can feel when 'home' is the worst place. It could also be cause people told him his father was bad and his memories of lightning were just a cover for abusive violence, but he loved his dad so he wouldn't think of him that way; because his father really is innocent, and proven to be so, he can just stick with thinking all that about conflicted feelings was stupid.
Seems like the writers get it though. Mixing this with telling Iris her memories of her mom were false. That she loved someone that was just bad for her, and that Joe tried to make sure she would never doubt she was loved or start wondering if it was about not being good enough. Barry compares with the Snart family but not that part. But Lewis explicitly makes all his own behaviour about his kids not being good enough, which makes him vile, but his kids conflicted.
And Len doesn't kill Lewis for, what, forty odd years? But when he *does* Barry gives him the talk about how there's good in him and he knows he wants to be better, "more than just a criminal". Like, I know Barry has huge great levers sticking out begging older guys 'validate me!' and people offer what they want from others, but, maybe it's a little tacky at this precise moment? Len's done something that's fucked up by his own fairly lenient standards, and now the hero acts like that is 'more'?
So that last conversation in prison, Barry leads with visiting dad, makes that connection, then is all 'yet you killed him'. Len snaps back "He deserved it" ... and Barry ?laughs? The hell? "Is that funny to you?". Because it's sure as hell not funny to Len, broken hearted and sitting where his dad last sat and probably comparing that 'deserve'. Two career criminals everyone compares. If his dad deserved to die then what does Len deserve?
But that's not Barry's line of thinking. He's noticed Len cares about one whole other person, so now he's impressed. But the way he says it sounds enough like a threat, given everything that just happened to her, that Len answers with his own threat, the mutually assured destruction one. You know my secret? I know yours! Better hope I don't talk in my sleep.
But Barry, he thinks he's in a different conversation. So here's where he does his little speech.
"You won't. Today just proved what I've always known. There's good in you, Snart. And you don't have to admit it to me, but there's a part of you that knows you don't have to let your past define you. A part of you that really wants to be more than just a criminal."
Of all the tone deaf moments to call him Snart.
I mean, which bit of today proved what? Seeing Len kill to protect his sister? Like Len saw his dad kill to 'protect' him?
That wasn't the thing though. The unusual thing, the one that made him *not* like his father? That was how long he *didn't* pull the trigger. Forty years, sure, but also facing off against the Flash with his father's finger on the trigger. Lisa could have died in an instant, but there was still time for dramatic standoff, because Len gave the Flash just that much trust.
If the only one he cares about is Lisa, that doesn't even make sense.
I mean, given that he already iced Barry once this episode and saw he was fine later, it barely makes sense.
Unless he doesn't actually want to hurt him. Or let his dad use him to hurt him. Again.
Len has been on an emotional rollercoaster since this thing started. He's found someone who won't back off on saving him even after Len shoots him - and he watched his dad shoot him. "I'm sorry, Barry." He actually says sorry. Out loud. But he also says Barry's real name, and there's a chance his dad can hear him. So you know how that moment makes emotional sense? If he actually believes that was Barry getting killed. If right then he feels like for the second time in two days, he just watched his dad kill someone.
Someone on his crew. I mean, we've seen him do crew management with bullets before, which apparently he learned at his father's knee, but even Cold didn't do that for someone doing their job right.
So he watches his dad kill his own crew, and kill this guy, this hero, who actually stuck around and stuck his neck out for Len and Lisa. That's the emotional reality of that moment, even if it wears off soon. He knows the Flash can be hit if taken by surprise, he's done it himself, so why not believe?
Len went missing, didn't contact anyone, probably in fear of his father. So his father wouldn't hurt anyone else. And then, Barry, who contacts him and keeps on doing so even after everything and just incidentally proves he'll risk his life for those Len holds dear.
So his dad tells him to shoot the Flash? And Len hesitates. Even at those stakes.
Lisa isn't the only one he cares about.
Or maybe he just needs Lisa safe and knows the only way is to wait for his enemies to sort it out, and has a reasonable suspicion that shooting the hero may interfere with that.
As soon as Lisa's safe he turns around and shoots his dad. Because he hates him more.
But though he doesn't drop the gun he does let Barry take it from him. Because he assumed Lisa was some kind of hostage still? But he was still staring at his dad right then, so probably, because of what he's just done.
Barry though, he's baffled. "Lisa was safe. Why did you do that?"
Lewis hit her since she was seven, and knocked her out a couple nights ago, but Lisa was safe.
Lewis had been in and out of prison their whole lives, but sending him back once more meant Lisa was safe.
Lewis just put a bomb in his daughter's head, something you couldn't even see or know was even done to you, something that could be there anytime and stay forever, and then he got the trigger out to *use* it... but hey, this time, Lisa was safe.
I mean, believing it makes Barry a nice person who believes in law and order, but not believing it makes Len someone who has been living Len's life for forty years.
And I've got to admit, I find abused kids turning around and ending their abusers pretty cathartic.
But it's also kind of a problem for Len, because if the old monster is past saving, well, how is there a chance for the younger one?
And that's what Barry is trying to address. The whole thing where the past doesn't define you and you can still be a hero too. And yet, still, wanting to punch his smug face.
Because he's acting like Len just took down some evildoer, and ignoring he just lost his dad.
TL DR I have a lot of feels about abused kids trying to grow away from their parents, and their parents, and addiction which got brought up in this episode, and Barry and his lack of shades of grey just... keeps putting his foot in it as far as I can see.
Feels rollercoaster.
But writers maybe know that, so okay, punching in the smug face may even be one of the layers of react in there.
And I can stare at Wentworth Miller having feelings for really a lot.
Bad guy still did bad things though.
You know if the whole justice and prisons system worked properly in comics universes they'd end up with hardly anything to do. Vigilante action from both sides of the line only happens because they're convinced the courts and law enforcement officers won't save them.
I prefer those stories where the heroes notice they're breaking the law though. I mean, Barry is so wrong in season one saying the difference is the good guys do it to help people. Bad guys got their people too. But I guess it is why Barry is so smug face thinking it makes a difference now Snart has a 'good' motive.
Heh, look at that gigantic meta trying to pick a fight with one scene I actually really like from an episode where only the science is cringeworthy. Me being fannish again, how I have missed it.