Legends of Tomorrow 2-08 The Chicago Way
Aug. 29th, 2017 10:25 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
beccaelizabethI'm kind of glad I saw so many spoilers and knew not to get my hopes up
because that was kind of a gut punch
what we wanted, in a way we'd never want.
Which is the temptation time travel dangles over all of them.
"Len. Leonard." has to be the most heartbreaking thing out of Mick's mouth so far.
The subtitles I think didn't have the first Len? It was all breath. I went back over it a few times to tell me what my ears heard.
I did that right at the end too, and I'm still not sure if it's I'd or I'll, which is kind of crucial.
Mick talking to his presumed hallucination is heartbreaking. We want to see Len too, but this way means Mick is really really not okay. It doesn't match the memory flashes Martin got of a changed timeline, so it's not alterations to time. Amaya doesn't see or hear or react when there's very probably time for her to. So we're left with Mick's conclusion. "I must be losing my mind."
Put together with Gideon's offhand response to Nate's 'joke'... Gideon says she can fix brain damage, given enough time. Nate asks why she hasn't helped Rory, Gideon says who say I haven't. And a computer, which is all Gideon is being this season, is not likely to be making a joke.
Also, if the writers think brain damage is funny, I have very rude words for them.
So Mick Rory is *not okay*, and this... this with Len is not okay either.
He's hallucinating the voice of common sense suggesting he could maybe try surviving. And he's telling it to shut up.
I'd be dead like you, simple acknowledgement. I'll be dead like you, as I saw pointed out on tumblr, actionable plan. Key difference.
Subs say I'd, but Mick's tendency to linger near bombs and not duck when the bullets fly maybe might say elsewise. Transcript says I'll, and it's generally working from the TV subs. Subtitling differences happen, but this one is important.
Actively or passively wanting whatever sorts of out, Mick Rory is not okay, and his team don't seem to notice.
Also, he's sitting around drinking beer or stronger really often. And the crew just get annoyed at him. What, is he not a volunteer? Do they have shifts? And for that matter, why do they want to drag him along once they know he's drinking? Again. Drunk and off duty haven't been the same thing lately.
This is no way to run an armed enterprise.
Sara isn't paying enough attention to needs.
Sara gets an offer this episode and refuses it, but on grounds I purely can't see. Take a nightmare that's real over a dream that's a lie - suggesting alterations and aberrations aren't real? Flat out saying, again, that Martin's daughter isn't real? How in the hell do they get there?
I mean if Eobard believes that logic it explains every last thing he ever did, but oh look, he's a *bad guy*.
It's always real. Every single person is real. Their choices are real.
The only ethical grounds for not changing history is the violation of free will, and that takes a hell of a lot more explanation than they've ever put in.
"Because time is sacred, and it can't be changed to suit any one person's desire without harming the lives of countless others."
That's Sara's position at that point, and for Martin at least she's changed her mind by the end of the episode
but whatever does she mean by 'sacred' anyway?
If it's an argument from harm then the counter is the greatest good for the greatest number, and I've got that argument ready to go.
But,'sacred' puts it into the realms of the theological without even naming a god, unless the god is time itself. Can't be argued without considerably more explication.
Look, if aberrations create timequakes, then time has some sort of structure that can be disrupted by change. If those quakes have physical and destructive effects, then there's only so much change the timeline can take. That's an argument from physics and concrete consequence. But we'd need to know what timequakes are, exactly and precisely, and to be able to measure consequence.
Which we don't and can't, so we can't evaluate these arguments.
If the argument is about choice and consequences, we actually can, and it makes sense in earth logic. But calling people unreal or refusing to save lives does not. Earth logic, at least about heroism and how to treat each other well, doesn't cover this. So how are we meant to side with Legends?
Especially since they keep changing their minds.
And if the change is simply because this aberration is someone they know and care about, that's a cheap ass reason, that still doesn't explain not getting Laurel back.
I can't make the laws of time or the characters motivations internally consistent.
... Eo yes, the rest of them no.
So they kind of piss me off.
Speaking of, the new bros. Or, as Mick calls them, partners.
Mick is, in his really specific way, selflessly helpful with emotional stuff: he reached out to Ray all through his no suit identity crisis, and now Ray is with someone else, he names them partners and tells them to get their act together.
And this after he's been effectively dumped.
... I so want to slap Ray, but he probably didn't ever hear partners as significant, so, here he ends up, with someone way more like him.
Nate calls Mick a genius but acts like Mick did it on accident.
But then Mick takes over with "do this my way, like a criminal" and has the plan that actually works.
Writers show him with skills, team fails to appreciate.
Amaya notices though. And they work together pretty good.
I read someone on tumblr who is puzzled that all of Mick's storylines, meaning relationship with Ray and Amaya, get transferred to Nate. They felt it was to make room for leaving. But that isn't what I'm seeing at all. This is a systematic setup of Mick's isolation. Nothing wrong with being an Outsider? But he keeps reaching out, asking for a partner, a friend. And he keeps being rebuffed, as they find a better fit with someone more like them. Amaya tells Mick he's not a bad guy, but that isn't how he sees himself. It's like accepting him, has promising moments of accepting the dark side too, but if they don't want that dark side, well, he can find those that do.
He's really good at being a criminal.
And he had a partner, his one friend, once. Until he blew himself up...
And that sets him up with a choice.
Like they all have a choice, to go back and change things.
But he'd have to go back in his personal development. If he gets everything he used to want, how is that going to fit?
Sara rejecting Merlyn's offer of a nice and normal life said "I was never meant for those things, and I know that now."
That could be a depressing statement. That phrasing isn't exactly saying she's happy how she turned out.
But stack it with some threads from the Invasion, where they kind of saw the more normal life, and maybe it's closer to Ollie talking to Barry: happier, but not as full.
Or maybe she hasn't fully chosen yet either, still wavering, trying on other people's rule sets.
This episode, Mick gets a reminder of all he lost, and it's a whole lot of sad.
... and I know that storyline isn't getting happier from here.
From knowing spoilers...
at the end of season one "You may not think you're a hero, but you're a hero to me."
We thought the problem was he lost him.
I think the story thinks the problem is Mick always admired him, villain years too.
So it keeps highlighting Mick is a villain, and showing us Len. Because Len died so all of time got its free will back. But that leaves everyone, especially time travellers, a choice. Keep looking back or move forwards.
... making Len the representative of that choice for Mick kind of hurts the people who just liked him...
because that was kind of a gut punch
what we wanted, in a way we'd never want.
Which is the temptation time travel dangles over all of them.
"Len. Leonard." has to be the most heartbreaking thing out of Mick's mouth so far.
The subtitles I think didn't have the first Len? It was all breath. I went back over it a few times to tell me what my ears heard.
I did that right at the end too, and I'm still not sure if it's I'd or I'll, which is kind of crucial.
Mick talking to his presumed hallucination is heartbreaking. We want to see Len too, but this way means Mick is really really not okay. It doesn't match the memory flashes Martin got of a changed timeline, so it's not alterations to time. Amaya doesn't see or hear or react when there's very probably time for her to. So we're left with Mick's conclusion. "I must be losing my mind."
Put together with Gideon's offhand response to Nate's 'joke'... Gideon says she can fix brain damage, given enough time. Nate asks why she hasn't helped Rory, Gideon says who say I haven't. And a computer, which is all Gideon is being this season, is not likely to be making a joke.
Also, if the writers think brain damage is funny, I have very rude words for them.
So Mick Rory is *not okay*, and this... this with Len is not okay either.
He's hallucinating the voice of common sense suggesting he could maybe try surviving. And he's telling it to shut up.
I'd be dead like you, simple acknowledgement. I'll be dead like you, as I saw pointed out on tumblr, actionable plan. Key difference.
Subs say I'd, but Mick's tendency to linger near bombs and not duck when the bullets fly maybe might say elsewise. Transcript says I'll, and it's generally working from the TV subs. Subtitling differences happen, but this one is important.
Actively or passively wanting whatever sorts of out, Mick Rory is not okay, and his team don't seem to notice.
Also, he's sitting around drinking beer or stronger really often. And the crew just get annoyed at him. What, is he not a volunteer? Do they have shifts? And for that matter, why do they want to drag him along once they know he's drinking? Again. Drunk and off duty haven't been the same thing lately.
This is no way to run an armed enterprise.
Sara isn't paying enough attention to needs.
Sara gets an offer this episode and refuses it, but on grounds I purely can't see. Take a nightmare that's real over a dream that's a lie - suggesting alterations and aberrations aren't real? Flat out saying, again, that Martin's daughter isn't real? How in the hell do they get there?
I mean if Eobard believes that logic it explains every last thing he ever did, but oh look, he's a *bad guy*.
It's always real. Every single person is real. Their choices are real.
The only ethical grounds for not changing history is the violation of free will, and that takes a hell of a lot more explanation than they've ever put in.
"Because time is sacred, and it can't be changed to suit any one person's desire without harming the lives of countless others."
That's Sara's position at that point, and for Martin at least she's changed her mind by the end of the episode
but whatever does she mean by 'sacred' anyway?
If it's an argument from harm then the counter is the greatest good for the greatest number, and I've got that argument ready to go.
But,'sacred' puts it into the realms of the theological without even naming a god, unless the god is time itself. Can't be argued without considerably more explication.
Look, if aberrations create timequakes, then time has some sort of structure that can be disrupted by change. If those quakes have physical and destructive effects, then there's only so much change the timeline can take. That's an argument from physics and concrete consequence. But we'd need to know what timequakes are, exactly and precisely, and to be able to measure consequence.
Which we don't and can't, so we can't evaluate these arguments.
If the argument is about choice and consequences, we actually can, and it makes sense in earth logic. But calling people unreal or refusing to save lives does not. Earth logic, at least about heroism and how to treat each other well, doesn't cover this. So how are we meant to side with Legends?
Especially since they keep changing their minds.
And if the change is simply because this aberration is someone they know and care about, that's a cheap ass reason, that still doesn't explain not getting Laurel back.
I can't make the laws of time or the characters motivations internally consistent.
... Eo yes, the rest of them no.
So they kind of piss me off.
Speaking of, the new bros. Or, as Mick calls them, partners.
Mick is, in his really specific way, selflessly helpful with emotional stuff: he reached out to Ray all through his no suit identity crisis, and now Ray is with someone else, he names them partners and tells them to get their act together.
And this after he's been effectively dumped.
... I so want to slap Ray, but he probably didn't ever hear partners as significant, so, here he ends up, with someone way more like him.
Nate calls Mick a genius but acts like Mick did it on accident.
But then Mick takes over with "do this my way, like a criminal" and has the plan that actually works.
Writers show him with skills, team fails to appreciate.
Amaya notices though. And they work together pretty good.
I read someone on tumblr who is puzzled that all of Mick's storylines, meaning relationship with Ray and Amaya, get transferred to Nate. They felt it was to make room for leaving. But that isn't what I'm seeing at all. This is a systematic setup of Mick's isolation. Nothing wrong with being an Outsider? But he keeps reaching out, asking for a partner, a friend. And he keeps being rebuffed, as they find a better fit with someone more like them. Amaya tells Mick he's not a bad guy, but that isn't how he sees himself. It's like accepting him, has promising moments of accepting the dark side too, but if they don't want that dark side, well, he can find those that do.
He's really good at being a criminal.
And he had a partner, his one friend, once. Until he blew himself up...
And that sets him up with a choice.
Like they all have a choice, to go back and change things.
But he'd have to go back in his personal development. If he gets everything he used to want, how is that going to fit?
Sara rejecting Merlyn's offer of a nice and normal life said "I was never meant for those things, and I know that now."
That could be a depressing statement. That phrasing isn't exactly saying she's happy how she turned out.
But stack it with some threads from the Invasion, where they kind of saw the more normal life, and maybe it's closer to Ollie talking to Barry: happier, but not as full.
Or maybe she hasn't fully chosen yet either, still wavering, trying on other people's rule sets.
This episode, Mick gets a reminder of all he lost, and it's a whole lot of sad.
... and I know that storyline isn't getting happier from here.
From knowing spoilers...
at the end of season one "You may not think you're a hero, but you're a hero to me."
We thought the problem was he lost him.
I think the story thinks the problem is Mick always admired him, villain years too.
So it keeps highlighting Mick is a villain, and showing us Len. Because Len died so all of time got its free will back. But that leaves everyone, especially time travellers, a choice. Keep looking back or move forwards.
... making Len the representative of that choice for Mick kind of hurts the people who just liked him...