GURPS education
Mar. 30th, 2018 06:57 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
beccaelizabethI looked up on a GURPS forum how many CP you get out of a college course
and woah
that is a large and rolling argument, like, many years and dozens of pages, arguing
even though it actually says it in the rule book.
Like, for one, the suggested number of CP in the rulebook only works out compared to the earning CP through study rules if class time and book time at college Both count as Taught hours. Which seems contrary to the rules as stated. So everyone does the math on the rules as stated, and comes out with slightly different numbers depending on how their particular college worked, and then it turns into an argument.
... the difference is a LOT of CP. GURPS Characters page 292 Improvement through Study says
A college semester, 21 weeks, is worth one CP per subject studied, and full time study is up to five subjects. That's 10 CP per year, 30 or 40 CP total depending on college.
Doing the math on hours in class plus reasonably expected hours with books tends to come out around 12 CP *total*.
Big difference.
And someone was asking why anyone would care, since your character has the points you say it has
but
the thing GURPS wants to be good at? advertises as, with it's Infinite Worlds schtick?
is portal fantasy, where you, personally, get dropped off in another world and something something profit.
So people are doing all this math to figure out how awesome they personally are in GURPS terms, and, well, they get invested.
But there's some other good points that college in the here now gives you CP you can't otherwise get in terms of Reputation. You're buying something with the Name that could follow you around and present bonuses later. Also reasonable to get some contacts there. Intangibles, not just lessons.
And then there's someone else reckoning all the points should go into basic IQ as you raise your default knowledge of the world, and that's... vaguely defensible in a US college system but honestly not what the rest of the world does. We specialise hard and early. It's plausible to say we finish our defaults at 16, sine after that we pick like 3 A levels and then one degree subject. Also GURPS rules for ageing reckon children reach their full adult IQ by 15. So I figure IQ is fixed after that and all else is specific skills. Others reckon elsewise.
So I think the Gurps rules for study hours make most sense of the lower numbers, cp go to particular subjects, and you can round up with a reputation if you graduate.
But there was also another argument that college is only trying to get you to a specific skill level and becomes useless after that level. Which is clearly defensible too. But leaves someone with a high IQ in the odd position of being unteachable, and it actually doesn't work that way. Someone can be a Teacher for the purposes of study hours if they have a Teaching skill of 12 and either your current skill level or better OR more character points in it than you.
A PGCE lets you take your college degree and go teach high school. It takes a ear to study for it. So it's one year to get your teaching skill up to 12, for a student who can already pass a degree course.
So maybe a year can get one skill up to 12 in general?
The idea college isn't meant to get your skill that high and qualified medical doctors might not have 12s was raised in that thread but is made of shudder. A 12 gives you a 75% probability of success, it's reliable in calm circumstances. Anything lower is... not. But I also know a 75% is a 1st, and many degrees are not 1st, so, logically, there are medical doctors out there who get it wrong more often.
BUT a skill of 12 is certainly achievable if it correlates that way.
... 9 works 37.5% of the time, 10 50%, 11 62.5%, and 12 74.1%
12 can use the skill to teach or do other qualified jobs.
But it assumes adventuring conditions, and most jobs do not in fact involve those. Paramedic or police yes, most offices no.
Non adventuring gives you +4 or more, which from a 12 takes you to a 16 with an unimprovable 98% chance of success, so you only have to worry about crit fails and seldom need to roll.
And it doesnt really make math sense to correlate it with degree boundaries like 1st. I think. ... but if it did a 3rd would be skill 9, 2:2 10, 2:1 11, 1st 12.
And above that would increase your skill.
Which is a satisfying sort or tidy.
Just probably not right.
I mean it would have to be three different skills to that level and then Teaching
if Teaching can be 12 in a year
OR it might take a whole degree to get a 12 in Teaching if you get a BA in it but once you have a degree in something else some of your points went into Teaching by osmosis and one year tops it up?
See there's lots of different plausible ways.
But a certificate like college gives out gives you an access perk, a proof of qualification, something passporty like that. Kind of like basic security clearance, you can get in to things. Mostly more courses though, or interviews, so, perk at most.
But a degree will give you points in Research and Writing and probably these days Typing, sometimes even as part of a taught unit like Study Skills. And then on top of that the specific things you are there to study. So those points get shares around a bit.
But then, after all the studying, the rulebook mentions 'skills originating from long forgoten college courses at 8 or 9'. page 172. so once you've put in the study it can fade away again. and there are indeed gurps rules for that too, it's just depressing.
It reckons ordinary people have 20 to 40 points in skills depending on education, but with a 4 year degree at the 5 per semester 2 semesters a year rate? That's 40 in specific taught subjects. That leaves no room for stuff like driving or housekeeping or cooking, or carousing or games. So it seems low end. unless that's not joined up thinking.
If I'm designing me as an adventurer I'll put 40 points into skills and take my college courses up to a 12. And not get driving or housekeeping or carousing. Bit of dancing though. I've been dancing one hour a week for years now, and off and on since I was small. It adds up. Granted to one point in four years but I'm older than most starting characters and I reckon I've got possibly even two whole points now.
... *sigh*
I also reckon if I'm gamifying me I have some points in occult and arcane and fortean and just plain weird. I've got whole feet of books and magazines on all kind of weird subjects. I just have to game it like it was true enough to play.
Mostly though if I send me to a game world I'm going to spend 35 points on Magery or get some Power Investiture, as suddenly in a Normal Mana world the magic works.
Also I would write my character sheet as if every martial arts lesson I ever sat through (or movie I watched) actually meant I learnt something. And as if I'd watched the teaching videos. And read all the books. And just generally had a practical skill where I've only got an interest. It wouldn't get my skill p to useful levels, but it's a glimmer of justification for a self defence strategy other than 'run away'. ... I am not fast.
GURPS character sheets are fun cause you can start with you and then make it go all Grand Cosmic Powers as your metagene wakes up or a deity notices you or whatever.
Pathfinder sheets are harder. Bard or Cleric or Mage, none of them have access to the whole spell list, nobody can learn everything all at once.
GURPS lets you have as many spells as your heart desires, and just find out as you go along how many you actually use. The prerequisite system pretty much requires you'll buy a bunch you've no intention of using.
But you can study so many.
Also prereqs apply if Magery, Power Investiture just chooses from a fixed list by asking a deity nicely. Shorter list, deity specific, no gods statted out in the main book, but, probably no having to study half of necromancy just to get to the healing spells.
Pathfinder has lists of Domains. GURPS takes a bit more work.
But. What I sat down to figure: nobody agrees how much you learn at college, but being a regular person with 40 points in a dozen skills up to skill 12 seems like you probably went to college for a degree.
Going to go play with character sheets now...
and woah
that is a large and rolling argument, like, many years and dozens of pages, arguing
even though it actually says it in the rule book.
Like, for one, the suggested number of CP in the rulebook only works out compared to the earning CP through study rules if class time and book time at college Both count as Taught hours. Which seems contrary to the rules as stated. So everyone does the math on the rules as stated, and comes out with slightly different numbers depending on how their particular college worked, and then it turns into an argument.
... the difference is a LOT of CP. GURPS Characters page 292 Improvement through Study says
A college semester, 21 weeks, is worth one CP per subject studied, and full time study is up to five subjects. That's 10 CP per year, 30 or 40 CP total depending on college.
Doing the math on hours in class plus reasonably expected hours with books tends to come out around 12 CP *total*.
Big difference.
And someone was asking why anyone would care, since your character has the points you say it has
but
the thing GURPS wants to be good at? advertises as, with it's Infinite Worlds schtick?
is portal fantasy, where you, personally, get dropped off in another world and something something profit.
So people are doing all this math to figure out how awesome they personally are in GURPS terms, and, well, they get invested.
But there's some other good points that college in the here now gives you CP you can't otherwise get in terms of Reputation. You're buying something with the Name that could follow you around and present bonuses later. Also reasonable to get some contacts there. Intangibles, not just lessons.
And then there's someone else reckoning all the points should go into basic IQ as you raise your default knowledge of the world, and that's... vaguely defensible in a US college system but honestly not what the rest of the world does. We specialise hard and early. It's plausible to say we finish our defaults at 16, sine after that we pick like 3 A levels and then one degree subject. Also GURPS rules for ageing reckon children reach their full adult IQ by 15. So I figure IQ is fixed after that and all else is specific skills. Others reckon elsewise.
So I think the Gurps rules for study hours make most sense of the lower numbers, cp go to particular subjects, and you can round up with a reputation if you graduate.
But there was also another argument that college is only trying to get you to a specific skill level and becomes useless after that level. Which is clearly defensible too. But leaves someone with a high IQ in the odd position of being unteachable, and it actually doesn't work that way. Someone can be a Teacher for the purposes of study hours if they have a Teaching skill of 12 and either your current skill level or better OR more character points in it than you.
A PGCE lets you take your college degree and go teach high school. It takes a ear to study for it. So it's one year to get your teaching skill up to 12, for a student who can already pass a degree course.
So maybe a year can get one skill up to 12 in general?
The idea college isn't meant to get your skill that high and qualified medical doctors might not have 12s was raised in that thread but is made of shudder. A 12 gives you a 75% probability of success, it's reliable in calm circumstances. Anything lower is... not. But I also know a 75% is a 1st, and many degrees are not 1st, so, logically, there are medical doctors out there who get it wrong more often.
BUT a skill of 12 is certainly achievable if it correlates that way.
... 9 works 37.5% of the time, 10 50%, 11 62.5%, and 12 74.1%
12 can use the skill to teach or do other qualified jobs.
But it assumes adventuring conditions, and most jobs do not in fact involve those. Paramedic or police yes, most offices no.
Non adventuring gives you +4 or more, which from a 12 takes you to a 16 with an unimprovable 98% chance of success, so you only have to worry about crit fails and seldom need to roll.
And it doesnt really make math sense to correlate it with degree boundaries like 1st. I think. ... but if it did a 3rd would be skill 9, 2:2 10, 2:1 11, 1st 12.
And above that would increase your skill.
Which is a satisfying sort or tidy.
Just probably not right.
I mean it would have to be three different skills to that level and then Teaching
if Teaching can be 12 in a year
OR it might take a whole degree to get a 12 in Teaching if you get a BA in it but once you have a degree in something else some of your points went into Teaching by osmosis and one year tops it up?
See there's lots of different plausible ways.
But a certificate like college gives out gives you an access perk, a proof of qualification, something passporty like that. Kind of like basic security clearance, you can get in to things. Mostly more courses though, or interviews, so, perk at most.
But a degree will give you points in Research and Writing and probably these days Typing, sometimes even as part of a taught unit like Study Skills. And then on top of that the specific things you are there to study. So those points get shares around a bit.
But then, after all the studying, the rulebook mentions 'skills originating from long forgoten college courses at 8 or 9'. page 172. so once you've put in the study it can fade away again. and there are indeed gurps rules for that too, it's just depressing.
It reckons ordinary people have 20 to 40 points in skills depending on education, but with a 4 year degree at the 5 per semester 2 semesters a year rate? That's 40 in specific taught subjects. That leaves no room for stuff like driving or housekeeping or cooking, or carousing or games. So it seems low end. unless that's not joined up thinking.
If I'm designing me as an adventurer I'll put 40 points into skills and take my college courses up to a 12. And not get driving or housekeeping or carousing. Bit of dancing though. I've been dancing one hour a week for years now, and off and on since I was small. It adds up. Granted to one point in four years but I'm older than most starting characters and I reckon I've got possibly even two whole points now.
... *sigh*
I also reckon if I'm gamifying me I have some points in occult and arcane and fortean and just plain weird. I've got whole feet of books and magazines on all kind of weird subjects. I just have to game it like it was true enough to play.
Mostly though if I send me to a game world I'm going to spend 35 points on Magery or get some Power Investiture, as suddenly in a Normal Mana world the magic works.
Also I would write my character sheet as if every martial arts lesson I ever sat through (or movie I watched) actually meant I learnt something. And as if I'd watched the teaching videos. And read all the books. And just generally had a practical skill where I've only got an interest. It wouldn't get my skill p to useful levels, but it's a glimmer of justification for a self defence strategy other than 'run away'. ... I am not fast.
GURPS character sheets are fun cause you can start with you and then make it go all Grand Cosmic Powers as your metagene wakes up or a deity notices you or whatever.
Pathfinder sheets are harder. Bard or Cleric or Mage, none of them have access to the whole spell list, nobody can learn everything all at once.
GURPS lets you have as many spells as your heart desires, and just find out as you go along how many you actually use. The prerequisite system pretty much requires you'll buy a bunch you've no intention of using.
But you can study so many.
Also prereqs apply if Magery, Power Investiture just chooses from a fixed list by asking a deity nicely. Shorter list, deity specific, no gods statted out in the main book, but, probably no having to study half of necromancy just to get to the healing spells.
Pathfinder has lists of Domains. GURPS takes a bit more work.
But. What I sat down to figure: nobody agrees how much you learn at college, but being a regular person with 40 points in a dozen skills up to skill 12 seems like you probably went to college for a degree.
Going to go play with character sheets now...