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beccaelizabethIn the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode Superstar a previously minor character, Jonathan Levinson, did a spell so he was suddenly the center of the universe. To get there he didn't have any achievements or qualities of his own - he leeched them off established characters. He didn't join them, he became pieces of them, pieces which they lost. So he was as strong and brave and fast as Buffy, as smart as Willow and Giles put together, a better soldier and leader than Riley etc etc
In the episode it was hilarious, and complications ensued, so it made story.
A problem arises when writers do that by accident, usually while trying to introduce a new character, or bring a minor character into the spotlight.
It is slightly dodgy, and potentially unhelpful, to introduce a new character by showing how they have skills or traits that the regular team already have. In real life having more than one person that can use a gun is *very helpful*, but in a story it means they'll be doing the same job, and you have to start working hard to have them bring something new to it. So the first reason not to do a Superstar is that there's already someone doing that role, and presumably if people watch them on purpose they already like how they're doing it.
Generic traits like 'brave, potential hero' are what main characters in the genre need (unless they're going to be a Vila or similar reluctant type), so giving them to the newbie is pretty much necessary. But doing so by taking them away from someone else is a problem, because the 'someone else' already has fans. Or just regular viewers who won't find it plausible, or attractive. Basically making yourself look good by making the bad guys look bad is a winner, but doing so by making an established good guy look bad is just going to annoy a large chunk of audience.
If it's one of those 'rivalry' plots or some kind of character arc where it puts the newbie into conflict with the team then that can work. That's a story generator.
Problem 2 happens when the only consequence is that the whole team love the newbie best.
Not all the audience is going to love the newbie best. If the whole team loves them best there needs to be a compelling reason to keep it plausible. Mind control, for instance. Maybe a spell. Otherwise it's just not very likely.
And also limits the stories you can tell, unless you have someone get disillusioned to give a new viewpoint to play with.
Those problems are the usual reasons a MarySue is a problem.
I know there's competing definitions, but mind doesn't involve author-insert anywhere.
A MarySue distorts the regular characters, usually by deskilling them in order to make their skills look good in comparison, distorts the regular relationships, usually by stepping in to the middle and connecting as strongly in five minutes as the regulars have in five years, and *gets away with it*. If anyone objects to the MarySue it is usually a sign of (a) evil or (b) imminent death. Otherwise they fail to notice their own distortion and keep on trundling happily along while MarySue becomes the star. But not the protagonist - she's not changed, on account of being just right in the first place.
Problem 3 is the replacement issue. Especially if you kill a character, rather than just having them leave, replacing them with someone with the exact same skill set and character traits minus something inconvenient (being female, say, or trying to shag half the slash pairing) is only going to endear you to people who have the *exact* same problem with the eliminated character. And I mean exact. Otherwise you're going to manage to duplicate the problems they had with the departed even though you've changed their face.
And anyone that actually *liked* the regular character is suddenly going to have a problem with the character moved into 'their' place, when not setting it up as a replacement could instead have created a character they would also like.
The retcon problem is a biggie as well - the 'previously unmentioned yet close relationship' issue being most likely to distort. Or - and this one both steals and distorts - the 'taught them all they know' issue, where it turns out the regular character hadn't thought anything up themselves, they just learned it all from newbie. And it's so tempting to throw these in with a line or two that seem to make newbie integration smoother.
Don't get me wrong - everybody comes from somewhere, everybody learned somewhere, so of course there are relationships and of course there are learned experts that we haven't yet seen.
The problem comes when that new, only told about, relationship is the key to the group, or the new and only reported expertise, or worse yet the hearing what we've seen was actually them. Retroactive replacement = even more problems than replacement.
Lump all of these together and basically the only way the character can get more annoying is if they actually get sex. Because then that annoys everyone who pairs off that character with anyone else at all.
It's not that new or refocused characters are inherently bad. The latter turn up in fanfic a lot - there's always tons of background characters that fanfic decides are worth playing with and invents a personality for.
But it helps to make them *different*, to not try to fit them into slots that already have occupants.
And the main thing is to have them *earn it*.
Whatever the regular team feel for them, show us why.
This one is dodgy advice, because a lot of stories that made me *facepalm* clearly think they have done this. Their newbie walks in and saves the team - win! Their newbie is very pretty - kisses! Isn't that showing it?
... sometimes. Maybe. Depending how it's written.
But to make it feel like it is earned, it has to cost something, or at least risk something. If MarySue is too perfect, she's never putting anything at risk, since she couldn't possibly fail. No cost, no earning, no interest.
To make the relationship feel earned? Newbie has to go out on a limb, put something on the line, risk themselves in some way in order to get that relationship in return. In a mundane story that can be as simple as a good conversation. In F&SF it's more likely to involve monsters at some point. Whichever works.
If what they get seems stolen from a regular, it will *never* feel earned. If their courage stands out only because a regular is atypically cowardly, if their knowledge is key only because a regular is unusually stupid, if their offered friendship is needed only because the regular best friend just left, it's never going to look very good *because* the reader will compare it to the *regular* version of that character, to what they're used to, and it'll come up short.
If everyone is at their shining best and the newbie *also* shines, you're on a winner.
I write all this about writing and I not get around to writing yet.
I also don't know if any of this is appropriate feedback ever. I mean the number of times I feel like pointing out that putting down their disliked character is a dodgy strategy for making people like their prefered character... is very often. But if people just want to kill off a regular character and put a new one in their place and imply her skills were really his all along, who am I to tell them how to write their story?
*shrugs*
In the episode it was hilarious, and complications ensued, so it made story.
A problem arises when writers do that by accident, usually while trying to introduce a new character, or bring a minor character into the spotlight.
It is slightly dodgy, and potentially unhelpful, to introduce a new character by showing how they have skills or traits that the regular team already have. In real life having more than one person that can use a gun is *very helpful*, but in a story it means they'll be doing the same job, and you have to start working hard to have them bring something new to it. So the first reason not to do a Superstar is that there's already someone doing that role, and presumably if people watch them on purpose they already like how they're doing it.
Generic traits like 'brave, potential hero' are what main characters in the genre need (unless they're going to be a Vila or similar reluctant type), so giving them to the newbie is pretty much necessary. But doing so by taking them away from someone else is a problem, because the 'someone else' already has fans. Or just regular viewers who won't find it plausible, or attractive. Basically making yourself look good by making the bad guys look bad is a winner, but doing so by making an established good guy look bad is just going to annoy a large chunk of audience.
If it's one of those 'rivalry' plots or some kind of character arc where it puts the newbie into conflict with the team then that can work. That's a story generator.
Problem 2 happens when the only consequence is that the whole team love the newbie best.
Not all the audience is going to love the newbie best. If the whole team loves them best there needs to be a compelling reason to keep it plausible. Mind control, for instance. Maybe a spell. Otherwise it's just not very likely.
And also limits the stories you can tell, unless you have someone get disillusioned to give a new viewpoint to play with.
Those problems are the usual reasons a MarySue is a problem.
I know there's competing definitions, but mind doesn't involve author-insert anywhere.
A MarySue distorts the regular characters, usually by deskilling them in order to make their skills look good in comparison, distorts the regular relationships, usually by stepping in to the middle and connecting as strongly in five minutes as the regulars have in five years, and *gets away with it*. If anyone objects to the MarySue it is usually a sign of (a) evil or (b) imminent death. Otherwise they fail to notice their own distortion and keep on trundling happily along while MarySue becomes the star. But not the protagonist - she's not changed, on account of being just right in the first place.
Problem 3 is the replacement issue. Especially if you kill a character, rather than just having them leave, replacing them with someone with the exact same skill set and character traits minus something inconvenient (being female, say, or trying to shag half the slash pairing) is only going to endear you to people who have the *exact* same problem with the eliminated character. And I mean exact. Otherwise you're going to manage to duplicate the problems they had with the departed even though you've changed their face.
And anyone that actually *liked* the regular character is suddenly going to have a problem with the character moved into 'their' place, when not setting it up as a replacement could instead have created a character they would also like.
The retcon problem is a biggie as well - the 'previously unmentioned yet close relationship' issue being most likely to distort. Or - and this one both steals and distorts - the 'taught them all they know' issue, where it turns out the regular character hadn't thought anything up themselves, they just learned it all from newbie. And it's so tempting to throw these in with a line or two that seem to make newbie integration smoother.
Don't get me wrong - everybody comes from somewhere, everybody learned somewhere, so of course there are relationships and of course there are learned experts that we haven't yet seen.
The problem comes when that new, only told about, relationship is the key to the group, or the new and only reported expertise, or worse yet the hearing what we've seen was actually them. Retroactive replacement = even more problems than replacement.
Lump all of these together and basically the only way the character can get more annoying is if they actually get sex. Because then that annoys everyone who pairs off that character with anyone else at all.
It's not that new or refocused characters are inherently bad. The latter turn up in fanfic a lot - there's always tons of background characters that fanfic decides are worth playing with and invents a personality for.
But it helps to make them *different*, to not try to fit them into slots that already have occupants.
And the main thing is to have them *earn it*.
Whatever the regular team feel for them, show us why.
This one is dodgy advice, because a lot of stories that made me *facepalm* clearly think they have done this. Their newbie walks in and saves the team - win! Their newbie is very pretty - kisses! Isn't that showing it?
... sometimes. Maybe. Depending how it's written.
But to make it feel like it is earned, it has to cost something, or at least risk something. If MarySue is too perfect, she's never putting anything at risk, since she couldn't possibly fail. No cost, no earning, no interest.
To make the relationship feel earned? Newbie has to go out on a limb, put something on the line, risk themselves in some way in order to get that relationship in return. In a mundane story that can be as simple as a good conversation. In F&SF it's more likely to involve monsters at some point. Whichever works.
If what they get seems stolen from a regular, it will *never* feel earned. If their courage stands out only because a regular is atypically cowardly, if their knowledge is key only because a regular is unusually stupid, if their offered friendship is needed only because the regular best friend just left, it's never going to look very good *because* the reader will compare it to the *regular* version of that character, to what they're used to, and it'll come up short.
If everyone is at their shining best and the newbie *also* shines, you're on a winner.
I write all this about writing and I not get around to writing yet.
I also don't know if any of this is appropriate feedback ever. I mean the number of times I feel like pointing out that putting down their disliked character is a dodgy strategy for making people like their prefered character... is very often. But if people just want to kill off a regular character and put a new one in their place and imply her skills were really his all along, who am I to tell them how to write their story?
*shrugs*
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no subject
Date: 2007-05-29 03:34 pm (UTC)I'm also amused that a lot of what you've said here could be applied to the deadly Ianto v. Gwen debate seen in the TW fandom. Ianto being the regular but at the same time, an unknown quantity with his skills and/or attributes and yet many authors put him as the ear that Jack used to whisper to before Gwen came along. At the same time, Gwen has her failings and yet comes out on top without a scratch more often than not despite poor decisions that would have gotten anyone else into serious danger.
Many people have also called Gwen the ultimate MarySue character who sweeps in and gets not one but two man (gets away with it), gets to be Jack's confidant and edges rather close to him (please no jackxgwen in season two!), and in the end of the day still pleads that her life is being ruined by this new shiny job which takes the blame of events off her shoulder.
Oh Buffy. How you shaped the world of F&SF as it is today, go Joss!
no subject
Date: 2007-05-30 12:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-11 05:16 pm (UTC)I've been meaning to look up these book titles, to let you know that DS9 actually goes on in a worthwhile direction after the ned of the series. Here you go:
Mission Gamma I-IV (introduces new characters -- not great, but needed to follow some of the other books which are great and which come after this. There’s an overarching timeline several authors are following.)
Millennium I-III* (these are not strictly speaking continuation-- just one of the best time travel, AU stories I’ve ever seen, with some cool takes on how people Might turn out)
Worlds of Star Trek Vols 1-3 so far (Vol 1 story dealing with Garak and Chief O’Brien is fantastic)
A Stitch in Time - Andrew J Robinson (actor who played Garak-- neat backstory for him that the actor used in his work)
Avatar Books 1 and 2 - S.D. Perry
Rising Son
Unity
I highly recommend these. Sorry I haven't had time to look up authors or anything. You should be able to get this via interlibrary loan or something-- or special order if finances permit. Many are no longer in bookstores, as some of these came out a couple of years ago. More books are in the works, though.