Poking the GURPS rules for Mind Emulates
Feb. 24th, 2012 12:13 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
beccaelizabethRight then. I need to figure out how many Mind Emulates I can run on a Gestalt Brain Matrix, and how smart they can be. And the rules say several things and have errata. So I'm going to put them all in here, and then I am going to poke them until they make sense.
I just closed the window, rats, but there's apparently a Transhuman Space rule that an AI running on a box one complexity too small runs at 1/10 the speed, and so on smaller. Is an interesting excuse for the Virtual Otherworld to run at a different speed, if they've made it so more program-people can run, but slower. That's such a significant time difference though that it makes the VR kind of easy to smash up from the outside. That would be another function of the Landlord them, to run smart and at normal speed to make sure nobody messes them up, as well as just being the one who has senses outside the box. I don't know if I want to play with altered time though.
All rules from 4e
Short version of relevant rules:
Digital Mind: Complexity equal to at least half your IQ
The more complicated rules in Ultra Tech do fit this, but have modifiers on, so it's not so simple as Complexity*2=IQ. Sadly, cause that would rock.
Computers: a Complexity 2 program requires a Complexity 2 computer or better.
Does that mean that a program that requires a Complexity 9 computer is a, single, Complexity 9 program?
Sadly none of the rules on Mind Emulation say it that way around. Which becomes rather important- if they're running on a Complexity 9 box, are they the only program that can run?
Complexity also determines how many programs a computer can run simultaneously. It can run two programs of its own Complexity, 20 programs of one Complexity level less, 200 programs of two Complexity levels less, and so on. For instance, a Complexity 2 computer could run two Complexity 2 programs or 20 Complexity 1 programs – or one Complexity 2 program and 10 Complexity 1 programs.
So is our Complexity 9 ME 2 programs, or could you put 10 Complexity 8 programs in there with it? It's the difference between a Mind Emulation or a Mind Emulation in a virtual world, or for that matter two Mind Emulations.
Do you need a whole computer, that is 2 programs, or are they only 1?
I can't find a rule that just says, so I'll have to decide.
Human mind 100 TB
Mind Emulation: It requires computer hardware and software with a Complexity equal to or greater than its (IQ/2)+4, rounded up.
Volitional AI: it requires computer hardware and software with a Complexity equal to or greater than its (IQ/2)+3, rounded up.
So it doesn't require as complex a computer, OR possibly it can be smarter on the same complexity computer?
but
Note that Complexity requirements for all Machine Intelligence Lenses (AIs, Mind Emulations) are based on average racial IQ rather than IQ.
And that is where logical consistency becomes complicated.
It would be illogical to require a tenfold increase in complexity in order to increase your IQ by one.
No human is ten times more complex than another human.
So, okay, we'll use a racial average IQ to determine complexity.
But if that is the case, what's up with AI? Can they be smarter more easily? They can't be ten times as smart, they'd only start with a racial average IQ that is 2 higher and fit in the same computer. But can they buy their IQ up further after that? The rule seems to say no, but the logic eludes me.
A mind emulation’s Complexity depends on the IQ of the being that was uploaded: Complexity 4 + (IQ/2), rounded up. Thus, someone with IQ 10 requires a Complexity 9 program.
That's a human, IQ 10 as racial average. One human ME is a Complexity 9 program. Is it ONE Complexity 9 program?
A mind emulation’s Complexity depends on the IQ of the being that was uploaded: Complexity 4 + (IQ/2), rounded up. Thus, someone with IQ 10 requires a Complexity 9 program.
A. It says A complexity 9 program. It's a lot to hang on that singular, but I'm going to say, one Mind Emulation is one program. And for a Human mind it is one Complexity 9 program.
Vatbrain Computers: The software Complexity required for any artificial intelligence programs or mind emulations are reduced by one Complexity level when running on a vatbrain biocomputer.
If the important word there is vatbrain, it doesn't apply to a gestalt brain matrix. But if the important word is biocomputer, the requirements are reduced. Since they're both made out of brain, I could handwave and call it same rule for both. But that has consequences.
In a Gestalt Brain Matrix: The number of people in the gestalt array determines the computer’s effective Complexity. The gestalt “components” must be sapient (IQ 6+) beings with no significant brain damage. One linked mind gives it a base Complexity 9; for each tenfold increase in the number of minds in the gestalt, add one to its Complexity. An IQ 6-7 component counts as only half a mind; IQ 15-17 as two, IQ 18-20 as three, IQ 21-23 as four, etc.
That means 1=C9, 10=C10, 100=C11.
So my gestalt matrix needs to plug in to very close to 100 minds, so that when one exceptionally bright individual unplugs himself, crisis can happen.
The interesting bit is if you combine the vatbrain rules, the ME rules, and the gestalt matrix rules.
A single ME is a single Complexity 9 program. Probably.
A complexity 9 computer can run TWO complexity 9 programs.
That means that a waking brain can run one personality, but one plugged in to a gestalt matrix can run TWO PEOPLE in the VR world.
But it gets better. Because if the Vatbrain thing applies, the ME complexity is one lower on a neurological system. That makes one Human ME Complexity 8.
Plug a single human mind in to the gestalt matrix and it is Complexity 9, which means it can run 20 ME programs.
As long as they stay unconscious, one brain can support 20 people as VR constructs. If the sleeper is uploaded, they could be among them.
But our Gestalt Matrix (GM... heh....) has 100 minds in it.
One Complexity 11 computer can run 2 C11, 20 C10, 200 C9, 2000 C8 ME programs.
Those 100 minds, probably 100 bodies, are supporting 2000 waking people.
Now if they want to support them in an interesting environment, we need the Ultratech rules for Virtual Reality.
Total [neurological interface] VR is a Complexity 6 program.
Every user needs one of those. Is that true if they're already uploads?
But to run the environment you need a
VR Manager
This program manages the interactions of multiple users within a shared virtual reality. The VR manager must
be run on whatever computer is maintaining the virtual environment.
Each program can handle about 10 users.
For more people, run more programs.
The manager can grant varying degrees of access to individual users to design characters or places within the environment.
Complexity 6: Supports up to total VR.
To figure out how many minds you can run at C11 you need to balance up the VR manager and minds.
1,999 minds leave room for 1 C8 program.
So you can run 1 C8, 10 C7, 100 C6 programs.
100 VR managers can support 1000 people.
So you actually need 1,998 people and 200 C6 VR managers.
Unless they all need an interface program too.
1978 human Mind Emulations, 200 VR managers for 2000 people in up to 200 worlds, 2000 VR interfaces.
You need a database of environments. Any scale is available up to
Virtual planet 1,000,000 TB
But multiply that by 10 if you want it less generic and more lifelike.
So however many minds are stored in the Giant Capertiller, however many TB of information it has, they need to leave room for the VR.
As well as TB and Complexity I'm trying to work out the physical constraints on these machines. How big are they?
A vatbrain biocomputer has twice the usual weight, cost, and power requirement of a normal computer, due to
the extra requirements of its life support system. LC3. So if a TL10 C11 megacomputer of 40,000lbs is a vatbrain, it would weigh 80,000lbs.
But with Gestalt Brain Matrix: A basic gestalt computer is $100,000 and 500 lbs. Modular “brain connectors” for extra components can be added for $1,000 and 50 lbs. each. LC2.
So the weight is measured in people, plus life support, plus 50lbs each, plus 500lbs.
That takes some maths.
A megacomputer is C11 at TL10, is the size of a building (no I don't know what size building, I'm using the Spaceships rules to try and figure it out), and weighs 40,000 lbs (which would fit in 1 section of Cargo Hold, even Steerage Cargo with life support, in an SM+8 spaceship). It stores 1,000,000,000 TB and uses an external power source, like plugging into the wall or a generator.
A biogadget could emulate that completely, but I'm saying the Capertiller is the connector parts of a Gestalt Brain and then some storage.
If I start with Spaceships and work out how much Habitat I need to put 100 people in Hibernation Chambers... they only age 10 times as slow and would never last to the new age. Suspended Animation Chambers are available at TL10 and weigh twice as much as Hibernation Chambers, so I'm going to say instead of 4 to a Cabin there's only 2. I can work out how much Habitat I need from there. (18 sections of Habitat in an SM+8 spaceship... which is quite a lot bulkier than the hard tech megacomputer! The purpose of this computer must be to keep people alive, it makes no sense as a computer.)
Then, on top of that, I add the 50*100 for the connectors, and the 500 for the thing that brings them together.
Since all of that is made of Giant Capertiller, I know it weighs at least 5500lbs. Probably quite a bit more, so it can be alive and power itself and stuff.
It is also long enough to reach all 100 people. That's pretty long. Say 600 feet long minimum, as if they were all lying down along it.
*blinks*
I do not want to meet a 600ft long caterpillar.
I'm not going to worry about how the whole biogadget complex is fed and powered. It's an ecosystem that can take care of itself. I'll go into it more if I feel like it and just handwave a lot.
It needs a power source though, if it has been buried in ice. It could be a nutrient flow like around a black smoker in the deep sea vents, or it could be warmth like the body powered biogadgets above, but there needs to be something to get it started and keep it ticking over, if solar isn't available.
Some kind of fire meets ice nutrient and warmth flow coming out from under the glacier is tempting. You get a lot of pretty visuals and a place to hide the bodies that way.
It also needs a whole lot of extra TB of storage.
1,000 TB built in weighs 0.001 lb at TL10, the Biogadget tech level. So the giant biogadget has room to grow a whole lot of storage space.
So 1,000,000,000 TB storage at TL 10 weighs 1,000 lbs?
Did I screw up how many 0s in one of my calculations or are hard drives like really really light?
Another place in Ultra Tech has Data Bank backup drives as 1 lb for 100,000 TB at TL10. That works out at 10,000 lb to carry around a megacomputer worth of TB. I like that better.
(That second way is a single cargo hold in an SM+6 ship. SM+6 is less than two buses long. Spaceships rules unhelpfully only give you a weight and a length, with a range of values for length.)
(in an SM+8 ship a single Steerage Cargo hold with life support could fit in 60,000 lbs, or 6,000,000,000 TB. Suffice to say, it is never, ever, ever, going to fill up its hard drive.)
So in your Cargo Hold you can fit a Virtual Planet and have 5,999,000,000 TB left over, for storing 59,990,000 people.
... wait, somewhere or other I lost or gained some zeroes, because the other way I worked it out, a megacomputer can have a virtual planet of your very own, and 999,000,000 TB left over to store 9,990,000 minds.
Either way is pretty sparsely populated for a whole planet, with just millions. You could fit them all in a country, and store more people. Virtual Small Nation is 10,000 TB, but you can make it Lifelike instead of just generic, so up it to 100,000 TB. That's still 59,999,000 in a cargo hold, or 9,999,000 in a mega computer. Not terribly many more. Which would you rather, a whole slightly generic planet instead of a nation sized piece, or the immortal memories of 9,000 more people?
Whatever you choose, your complexity 11 biocomputer can only wake up 1978 of them.
IF all 1978 are humans, of complexity 8. If one of them is an AI using all the IQ it can wring out of the system, well, that's 978 humans and one AI of (IQ/2)+3-1=11, or (18/2)+3-1=11 IQ 18.
Yes, that's ignoring the racial IQ thing again. I still don't understand how an AI can have a racial IQ. I don't see how the complexity thing relates to IQ at all. If a Complexity 8 Mind Emulation is a human running on a vatbrain, but they can individually buy their IQ up to 20, which is the edge of what humans can get, then how does it make any sense to require ten times the complexity for an AI to manage IQ 18?
Simpler by far to call the Landlord another human Mind Emulation and just buy him up to 20 as Complexity 8.
There's another way to handle the IQ and complexity thing, and to me it is suggested in the rules on how many component minds a mind of a given IQ counts as. An IQ 6-7 component counts as only half a mind; IQ 15-17 as two, IQ 18-20 as three, IQ 21-23 as four, etc.
That etc goes IQ 24-26 as five, IQ 27-29 as six, IQ 30-32 as seven, IQ 33-35 as eight, and 36-38 as nine, and IQ 39 and above count as 10.
If for mind you read program you have a way to scale the resources used without needing to up the Complexity. ME programs with an IQ of 8 to 14 are one whole Complexity 8 program on a vatbrain computer. Human minds can only get up to IQ 20 according to GURPS Basic Characters, so a human ME could need the space of up to 3 programs.
But nonhumans can do what they want in there, keep scaling up.
When they get up to IQ 39 they're 10 programs, like a program of the next higher complexity, so they'd need a higher complexity system to run on.
As long as they're short of IQ 100 they're not ten times as intelligent as a human, so why would they need the complexity to go up?
... I'm not sure that works at all.
Okay, it's not how GURPS does it, I'm sure, but I quite like the numbers that come out of it if I use that. You get smart people using up more resources, but not by such vast amounts. You can get a godlike artificial intelligence without adding another 900 people to your gestalt network. Basic defines godlike stats as those above 20. Which is a pretty small god. But 15 or above is amazing, everyone will notice it and comment on it, it will probably define you. 15 is, basically, hot stuff. Anything above 15 you'll only ever need for incredibly tricky things or contests with others above 15. So 20 is completely spectacular.
So we have our minds, and if we want to run 1978 of them we need the rest for CR6 programs to run the VR on, probably. Unless we only need 1998 and some VR managers. Wish I understood that bit of the rules.
1978 C8 programs can be 1978 people with IQ between 8 and 14.
or 989 people with IQ 15-17
or 659 people with IQ 18-20.
One would not even want 494 people with IQ 21-23. Godlike beings running around in those numbers? No thanks.
But the Landlord is right up there, at least 18, preferably 22. That's the Basic set Digital Mind IQ/2, no messing around. That sounds like it's within the rules until you poke the rules really hard. Seems reasonable. And he'd take up 4 times as much space as an average person.
So that's 1 godlike + 1974 average people.
Or of course you can mix and match them, give them a sprinkle of the exceptional people, give him an opposing godlike or two. It won't take you below 1,500 ME unless you really start messing about.
But would you want to preserve only your brightest? That's a pretty big decision.
Are there a bunch of really stupid programs being VR people?
Ultratech has Dreamgames, with an interactive cast, as Complexity 6 or at most Complexity 7.
Dreamgames don't last long, usually. Tens of hours of experienced time.
I don't know, does their virtuality have quests and a plot?
Are there distinct races of Mind Emulates and, what, Drones and Weak AI? People and holodeck characters, even if the people are only running as holoprojections!
It's a dangerous sort of world, if there's people who can be written off as unreal.
Only the real people could hack the matrix. Magic is a quality of the creative ME. Buuuuut, there's nothing to say the natural laws of the VR can't include magic like abilities. So doing something that would be unnatural in the real world isn't any indicator of being real. How could they tell each other apart?
Or is it just a really small world?
The competition to be one of the Awake would be absolutely fierce, either way. Bringing a specific mind out of storage and into play would be a Resurrection spell, but it would require the sacrifice of enough other minds to make room, no two ways about it. If one mind gets dead in the Matrix, is the next one chosen at random? Or is it a random handful, left to compete with each other somehow? Or the ever popular selective admission. You couldn't work towards points though, the limit is physical, you can't wake up long enough.
You could elect to share your runtime with someone, to work shifts with them. Or the whole world could be on shifts to share out the wake space.
If one of the bodies plugged in to the Matrix is yours, it doesn't make you immortal in the Matrix, it doesn't guarantee you will be awake. But, for fairness, it does give you a second chance. You die in the Matrix, you can compete against your replacement. But if you lose, they get a chance at using your meat self. Hmmm, would electing to sleep protect your meat self?
You may sleep in the Matrix, but if someone wants to use your body to get out, is that an erase and replace, or an overwrite?
The competition thing does sound a bit like that Red Dwarf episode. Holograms with limited space, dead mens shoes, all that. Very similar.
If I combine the numbers with the idea they can run 10 times slower if they pretend they're a complexity smaller, I think that means I can run 10 times more people. 1,974 at real speeds C8, 19,740 at ten times slower C6, 197,400 at 100 times slower C5, 1,974,000 at 1,000 times slower C4, 19,740,000 at 10,000 times slower C3 - which would mean they lived 1 year in the 10,000 years since the city was 'lost', which is a bit ridiculous. Interesting, but ridiculous. It's also more people than would fit in a megacomputer, though there's still easily more stored in a cargo hold. And the competition wouldn't exactly be spectacular with that many awake, you could amble around and just take turns with the other half of the memories. So if I want the last 10,000 years to have passed in 100 years of Matrix time, which is time for the old wizards to get very old and for the young to have a lot of turnover, then that's only 1 to 100. 197,400 people are up and around in a lifelike small nation, but they know there's many millions who want the chance. Competition, but not necessarily harsh.
If the component minds drop below 100, suddenly only 19,740 minds are running, at the same time differential. 177,660 people would simply disappear, or drop into enchanted sleep, however the VR represents the dormant minds. All that from a single godlike wizard escaping!
... of course the Landlord having 100 times the time to sort anything out makes it really pretty likely he's going to stop any escape before it happens.
But that's always true.
So what happens is outside/physical, hence at the same reaction speed as the Landlord.
One being gets unplugged by Darwin with a grenade. And it crashes the Matrix down a whole complexity. They have Darwin's body to plug in, but he's no way smart enough to replace the one who just escaped. As evidenced by the grenade thing.
If you've got 177,660 missing people then the remaining 19,740 are seriously likely to want somebody back badly enough to kill for it. Their society just suffered a disaster of epic proportions. They're going to be a hell of a mess in there. Plus there will be vast swathes of the VR that are suddenly uninhabited.
Of course if I'm willing to let it be 1,000 years inside for 10,000 years outside we might still get one incredibly old wizard, but there's been a society around for long enough people have moved on, possibly in ways unrecogniseable to the founders. And anyone returning straight from the sleepers would only remember the founder world. New minds waking up won't know the rules. There might be serious newbie turnover.
It won't progress precisely like a natural civilisation because there won't be any children... unless there's a magic to birth an AI? It would require a sacrifice to make room, but could make a completely new mind.
Then there would only be 19,740 people for that whole millennium though. Which is less a nation and more a campus. And when the complexity crashed they'd all know 9 people who weren't there any more, so, harsh reactions. And 1974 people is a small enough number I can imagine it, kind of like high school, or a couple of high schools. But then 19,740 is very much like university, and I can imagine that too.
If I stick to 100 years having passed in the last 10,000 then they had 197,400 people alive in those years, with a small nation to spread out into, so they might live all in a city or they might wander off. After the complexity crash they're still living at 1 hour to every 100 of ours, a serious time lag, but they've got 19,740 people, who have all lost 90% of their people. (Or have a random distribution of who they lost, some having everyone and some having nobody.)
2 C11, 20 C10, 200 C9, 2000 C8
4 C8 + 19,960 C7 at 1,000 year for 10,000 of ours
4 C8 + 199,600 C6 @ 100 years for 10,000 of ours
wait, every one of those C6 people would need 1 VR interface and ever 10 would need a VR manager.
I haven't been taking that into account as I up the number of people.
1:10:10 => 199,600 all through the C6 level.
9,505:95,045:95,045 = 199,595
5 spaces in a VR manager empty, 5 C6 programs can run, that's room for 2 more minds. So there's, just, room for visitors.
And that's more minds than I thought anyways.
199,595 people experience 100 years in the last 10,000.
Then the Matrix crashes a complexity.
Suddenly there's only 19,959 people around, and they're still only experiencing 1 day for 100 of ours.
That puts them at a serious disadvantage, compared to the outside world. If they felt threatened enough, they might discuss dropping time rates, down to 1 day for 10 of ours for only 1,959 people.
And because the system is only Complexity 10 without that crucial mind, it can only run 10 CR 9 or 100 CR8 programs, so only 94 or so people could run at real time. 20 CR7, 200 CR6, needing 95 VR interfaces and 10 VR managers, 105 CR6 programs. That leaves you 95 CR6 programs to play with.
... I still don't know if that's how VR interface + manager programs work.
Anyways, talk about pressure, if you want to be one of the 94, when to start with you were 199,595!
But if they leave it to the Landlord to fight for them, they could keep on with 19,959 thousand awake, and very slow.
How would you get a near majority of people to vote for hibernation?
Doesn't seem likely.
But the ones aggressive enough they wouldn't want to leave it to others, wouldn't want to leave it to the Landlord, are not going to be ones who are big on voting.
They'd have to be pretty ridiculously badass to win a fight at those odds either.
But, funnily enough, there are enough real world bodies to go around for that many people.
And there's one of their own out there.
If he does a prison break... well if he leaves 10 component minds in there the Landlord at least has a CR10 machine to run his CR8 self on.
But there are 90 monsters no longer in the basement.
... it would be really quite important to really quite a lot of people to get that one monster mind back into its box. Or replace it post haste, even if it takes four ordinary people to do it.
I don't know if I want to play with time dilation AND mind emulation AND monsters AND possession by squirmy biogadget brain. I mean, you'd never run out of story, but some of it would take a very long time to play through. Ten to one is about the worst ratio you could do anything with if you want to swap people in and out of the real world, and they'd only get a couple of hours of adventure in a day.
On the other hand, they wouldn't be ageing a single minute.
(Not that you can combine suspended animation and VR in GURPS rules. I handwave because I want a lost civilisation in cans, and you can't do that at hibernation rates.)
You'd still spend more than a week to play a day in VR.
Doable, but all kinds of ANYthing can happen out in the world.
It does give going into VR an extra down side. But do you need one when there's monsters and magic and a reasonably good chance someone will kill you and take over your body before you get the hang of the rules?
The thing is, if they've had ten thousand years of being VR people with 1974 people awake at once knowing millions are sleeping and waiting for their turn, then it seems unlikely any one person has been awake that whole time, and if they have been, they're more alien than Methos. The Really Old Guy at least lived half that time in a world with consistent physical laws and human relationships that involved being born as a new person, growing up, growing old, and death by old age. A VR might have a mechanism for death by old age simply to make room for more people, keep it fair. But making a new mind would require new empty and clean storage space and one of the currently awake to go dormant to make room for another program. It would be added pressure on a system that's already impossibly overloaded. The social pressure against it would be immense. The whole system of human relationships skews if you detach it from the cycle of birth and reproduction. The longer you give these people to not live in our human cycles, the less human they're going to be. But you'd combine it with the constant influx of newbies who only just went to sleep, as humans, in a physical world. The old would get ever further adrift from the young. I don't think I can extrapolate that over ten thousand or even one thousand years. I think I want time dilation just to keep it around one hundred years, and one really old but currently imaginable person. It would still involve a century of culture shift more epic than the change from 1900 to 2000, but it seems more imaginable. That means we're back to
199,595 people experience 100 years in the last 10,000.
Then the Matrix crashes a complexity.
Suddenly there's only 19,959 people around, and they're still only experiencing 1 day for 100 of ours.
If they all went dormant while up to 86 component minds got out and pushed, or hunted for the 4 minds they're missing to make up their world again... that's a lot of monsters in the basement. Possibly very smart monsters. Possibly many daft ones instead.
It would seem simpler for them to track down their missing monster, but on two counts it is not. For one, he's much smarter than a human, and more knowledgeable about the local ground, so even with his magic unavailable in the no mana area known as reality, he's still going to be a tough customer. For another, did he just break out of the Possession? If he did, he's immune to being possessed again. Perhaps he didn't break it, it just let go reflexively when damaged. But then he'd have to be possessed again. And now the very smart monster remains very smart, but the AI is running on a lower complexity box. If he has to scale his IQ down, he's at a disadvantage.
Simpler by far to round up any humans they can get their hands on, and shove them in a box, in whatever condition since the boxes can also heal. Dead or alive, as long as they don't mash any brains.
Then our adventurers are all in the box, and the world can run at a higher complexity again, but has to give them all a chance to be awake.
Are there enough adventurers to do that?
... just about. Only just. Most of them left the dome much earlier.
The time differential in the VR gives them a long lead time to search for their people before the people in the VR can react to them. One second in there is 100 seconds out here, so if you see someone pulled into a box you have more than a minute before anyone in the box can possibly react, 1 second being the smallest unit of combat time GURPS plays with for humans.
Once they're in the VR though, they can try and talk their way out of it. Maybe there are enough minds like this, but there could be even more if you just let us out to go invite people in...
Plus, the smartest monster is discovering he can have the whole campus to himself, but not get free.
And it's getting very cold out there. Very.
He might just give up and go home.
Activity! Conflict! Drama!
I think that's several twists more plot than I really need.
Plus even if they get their complexity back, they might only run a whole campus of minds, so they can think of how to deal with the new situation at only a small time disadvantage. The long term situation I want since the city was Lost doesn't have to be the adventure time situation. Especially since, if they dump down to very small numbers of minds awake, those would be the only ones deciding anything.
My math might be wrong. But it's pretty.
Still need to do some deciding, but it looks like it's a very small world, in the basement. It could be planet sized to look at, but in population, small.
Woah, I've been working on this for a lot of hours, and it's just useless imaginary maths that I've probably got wrong anyway. Oops?
Still, it is absolutely stuffed full of story idea. I think I like it.
I just closed the window, rats, but there's apparently a Transhuman Space rule that an AI running on a box one complexity too small runs at 1/10 the speed, and so on smaller. Is an interesting excuse for the Virtual Otherworld to run at a different speed, if they've made it so more program-people can run, but slower. That's such a significant time difference though that it makes the VR kind of easy to smash up from the outside. That would be another function of the Landlord them, to run smart and at normal speed to make sure nobody messes them up, as well as just being the one who has senses outside the box. I don't know if I want to play with altered time though.
All rules from 4e
Short version of relevant rules:
Digital Mind: Complexity equal to at least half your IQ
The more complicated rules in Ultra Tech do fit this, but have modifiers on, so it's not so simple as Complexity*2=IQ. Sadly, cause that would rock.
Computers: a Complexity 2 program requires a Complexity 2 computer or better.
Does that mean that a program that requires a Complexity 9 computer is a, single, Complexity 9 program?
Sadly none of the rules on Mind Emulation say it that way around. Which becomes rather important- if they're running on a Complexity 9 box, are they the only program that can run?
Complexity also determines how many programs a computer can run simultaneously. It can run two programs of its own Complexity, 20 programs of one Complexity level less, 200 programs of two Complexity levels less, and so on. For instance, a Complexity 2 computer could run two Complexity 2 programs or 20 Complexity 1 programs – or one Complexity 2 program and 10 Complexity 1 programs.
So is our Complexity 9 ME 2 programs, or could you put 10 Complexity 8 programs in there with it? It's the difference between a Mind Emulation or a Mind Emulation in a virtual world, or for that matter two Mind Emulations.
Do you need a whole computer, that is 2 programs, or are they only 1?
I can't find a rule that just says, so I'll have to decide.
Human mind 100 TB
Mind Emulation: It requires computer hardware and software with a Complexity equal to or greater than its (IQ/2)+4, rounded up.
Volitional AI: it requires computer hardware and software with a Complexity equal to or greater than its (IQ/2)+3, rounded up.
So it doesn't require as complex a computer, OR possibly it can be smarter on the same complexity computer?
but
Note that Complexity requirements for all Machine Intelligence Lenses (AIs, Mind Emulations) are based on average racial IQ rather than IQ.
And that is where logical consistency becomes complicated.
It would be illogical to require a tenfold increase in complexity in order to increase your IQ by one.
No human is ten times more complex than another human.
So, okay, we'll use a racial average IQ to determine complexity.
But if that is the case, what's up with AI? Can they be smarter more easily? They can't be ten times as smart, they'd only start with a racial average IQ that is 2 higher and fit in the same computer. But can they buy their IQ up further after that? The rule seems to say no, but the logic eludes me.
A mind emulation’s Complexity depends on the IQ of the being that was uploaded: Complexity 4 + (IQ/2), rounded up. Thus, someone with IQ 10 requires a Complexity 9 program.
That's a human, IQ 10 as racial average. One human ME is a Complexity 9 program. Is it ONE Complexity 9 program?
A mind emulation’s Complexity depends on the IQ of the being that was uploaded: Complexity 4 + (IQ/2), rounded up. Thus, someone with IQ 10 requires a Complexity 9 program.
A. It says A complexity 9 program. It's a lot to hang on that singular, but I'm going to say, one Mind Emulation is one program. And for a Human mind it is one Complexity 9 program.
Vatbrain Computers: The software Complexity required for any artificial intelligence programs or mind emulations are reduced by one Complexity level when running on a vatbrain biocomputer.
If the important word there is vatbrain, it doesn't apply to a gestalt brain matrix. But if the important word is biocomputer, the requirements are reduced. Since they're both made out of brain, I could handwave and call it same rule for both. But that has consequences.
In a Gestalt Brain Matrix: The number of people in the gestalt array determines the computer’s effective Complexity. The gestalt “components” must be sapient (IQ 6+) beings with no significant brain damage. One linked mind gives it a base Complexity 9; for each tenfold increase in the number of minds in the gestalt, add one to its Complexity. An IQ 6-7 component counts as only half a mind; IQ 15-17 as two, IQ 18-20 as three, IQ 21-23 as four, etc.
That means 1=C9, 10=C10, 100=C11.
So my gestalt matrix needs to plug in to very close to 100 minds, so that when one exceptionally bright individual unplugs himself, crisis can happen.
The interesting bit is if you combine the vatbrain rules, the ME rules, and the gestalt matrix rules.
A single ME is a single Complexity 9 program. Probably.
A complexity 9 computer can run TWO complexity 9 programs.
That means that a waking brain can run one personality, but one plugged in to a gestalt matrix can run TWO PEOPLE in the VR world.
But it gets better. Because if the Vatbrain thing applies, the ME complexity is one lower on a neurological system. That makes one Human ME Complexity 8.
Plug a single human mind in to the gestalt matrix and it is Complexity 9, which means it can run 20 ME programs.
As long as they stay unconscious, one brain can support 20 people as VR constructs. If the sleeper is uploaded, they could be among them.
But our Gestalt Matrix (GM... heh....) has 100 minds in it.
One Complexity 11 computer can run 2 C11, 20 C10, 200 C9, 2000 C8 ME programs.
Those 100 minds, probably 100 bodies, are supporting 2000 waking people.
Now if they want to support them in an interesting environment, we need the Ultratech rules for Virtual Reality.
Total [neurological interface] VR is a Complexity 6 program.
Every user needs one of those. Is that true if they're already uploads?
But to run the environment you need a
VR Manager
This program manages the interactions of multiple users within a shared virtual reality. The VR manager must
be run on whatever computer is maintaining the virtual environment.
Each program can handle about 10 users.
For more people, run more programs.
The manager can grant varying degrees of access to individual users to design characters or places within the environment.
Complexity 6: Supports up to total VR.
To figure out how many minds you can run at C11 you need to balance up the VR manager and minds.
1,999 minds leave room for 1 C8 program.
So you can run 1 C8, 10 C7, 100 C6 programs.
100 VR managers can support 1000 people.
So you actually need 1,998 people and 200 C6 VR managers.
Unless they all need an interface program too.
1978 human Mind Emulations, 200 VR managers for 2000 people in up to 200 worlds, 2000 VR interfaces.
You need a database of environments. Any scale is available up to
Virtual planet 1,000,000 TB
But multiply that by 10 if you want it less generic and more lifelike.
So however many minds are stored in the Giant Capertiller, however many TB of information it has, they need to leave room for the VR.
As well as TB and Complexity I'm trying to work out the physical constraints on these machines. How big are they?
A vatbrain biocomputer has twice the usual weight, cost, and power requirement of a normal computer, due to
the extra requirements of its life support system. LC3. So if a TL10 C11 megacomputer of 40,000lbs is a vatbrain, it would weigh 80,000lbs.
But with Gestalt Brain Matrix: A basic gestalt computer is $100,000 and 500 lbs. Modular “brain connectors” for extra components can be added for $1,000 and 50 lbs. each. LC2.
So the weight is measured in people, plus life support, plus 50lbs each, plus 500lbs.
That takes some maths.
A megacomputer is C11 at TL10, is the size of a building (no I don't know what size building, I'm using the Spaceships rules to try and figure it out), and weighs 40,000 lbs (which would fit in 1 section of Cargo Hold, even Steerage Cargo with life support, in an SM+8 spaceship). It stores 1,000,000,000 TB and uses an external power source, like plugging into the wall or a generator.
A biogadget could emulate that completely, but I'm saying the Capertiller is the connector parts of a Gestalt Brain and then some storage.
If I start with Spaceships and work out how much Habitat I need to put 100 people in Hibernation Chambers... they only age 10 times as slow and would never last to the new age. Suspended Animation Chambers are available at TL10 and weigh twice as much as Hibernation Chambers, so I'm going to say instead of 4 to a Cabin there's only 2. I can work out how much Habitat I need from there. (18 sections of Habitat in an SM+8 spaceship... which is quite a lot bulkier than the hard tech megacomputer! The purpose of this computer must be to keep people alive, it makes no sense as a computer.)
Then, on top of that, I add the 50*100 for the connectors, and the 500 for the thing that brings them together.
Since all of that is made of Giant Capertiller, I know it weighs at least 5500lbs. Probably quite a bit more, so it can be alive and power itself and stuff.
It is also long enough to reach all 100 people. That's pretty long. Say 600 feet long minimum, as if they were all lying down along it.
*blinks*
I do not want to meet a 600ft long caterpillar.
I'm not going to worry about how the whole biogadget complex is fed and powered. It's an ecosystem that can take care of itself. I'll go into it more if I feel like it and just handwave a lot.
It needs a power source though, if it has been buried in ice. It could be a nutrient flow like around a black smoker in the deep sea vents, or it could be warmth like the body powered biogadgets above, but there needs to be something to get it started and keep it ticking over, if solar isn't available.
Some kind of fire meets ice nutrient and warmth flow coming out from under the glacier is tempting. You get a lot of pretty visuals and a place to hide the bodies that way.
It also needs a whole lot of extra TB of storage.
1,000 TB built in weighs 0.001 lb at TL10, the Biogadget tech level. So the giant biogadget has room to grow a whole lot of storage space.
So 1,000,000,000 TB storage at TL 10 weighs 1,000 lbs?
Did I screw up how many 0s in one of my calculations or are hard drives like really really light?
Another place in Ultra Tech has Data Bank backup drives as 1 lb for 100,000 TB at TL10. That works out at 10,000 lb to carry around a megacomputer worth of TB. I like that better.
(That second way is a single cargo hold in an SM+6 ship. SM+6 is less than two buses long. Spaceships rules unhelpfully only give you a weight and a length, with a range of values for length.)
(in an SM+8 ship a single Steerage Cargo hold with life support could fit in 60,000 lbs, or 6,000,000,000 TB. Suffice to say, it is never, ever, ever, going to fill up its hard drive.)
So in your Cargo Hold you can fit a Virtual Planet and have 5,999,000,000 TB left over, for storing 59,990,000 people.
... wait, somewhere or other I lost or gained some zeroes, because the other way I worked it out, a megacomputer can have a virtual planet of your very own, and 999,000,000 TB left over to store 9,990,000 minds.
Either way is pretty sparsely populated for a whole planet, with just millions. You could fit them all in a country, and store more people. Virtual Small Nation is 10,000 TB, but you can make it Lifelike instead of just generic, so up it to 100,000 TB. That's still 59,999,000 in a cargo hold, or 9,999,000 in a mega computer. Not terribly many more. Which would you rather, a whole slightly generic planet instead of a nation sized piece, or the immortal memories of 9,000 more people?
Whatever you choose, your complexity 11 biocomputer can only wake up 1978 of them.
IF all 1978 are humans, of complexity 8. If one of them is an AI using all the IQ it can wring out of the system, well, that's 978 humans and one AI of (IQ/2)+3-1=11, or (18/2)+3-1=11 IQ 18.
Yes, that's ignoring the racial IQ thing again. I still don't understand how an AI can have a racial IQ. I don't see how the complexity thing relates to IQ at all. If a Complexity 8 Mind Emulation is a human running on a vatbrain, but they can individually buy their IQ up to 20, which is the edge of what humans can get, then how does it make any sense to require ten times the complexity for an AI to manage IQ 18?
Simpler by far to call the Landlord another human Mind Emulation and just buy him up to 20 as Complexity 8.
There's another way to handle the IQ and complexity thing, and to me it is suggested in the rules on how many component minds a mind of a given IQ counts as. An IQ 6-7 component counts as only half a mind; IQ 15-17 as two, IQ 18-20 as three, IQ 21-23 as four, etc.
That etc goes IQ 24-26 as five, IQ 27-29 as six, IQ 30-32 as seven, IQ 33-35 as eight, and 36-38 as nine, and IQ 39 and above count as 10.
If for mind you read program you have a way to scale the resources used without needing to up the Complexity. ME programs with an IQ of 8 to 14 are one whole Complexity 8 program on a vatbrain computer. Human minds can only get up to IQ 20 according to GURPS Basic Characters, so a human ME could need the space of up to 3 programs.
But nonhumans can do what they want in there, keep scaling up.
When they get up to IQ 39 they're 10 programs, like a program of the next higher complexity, so they'd need a higher complexity system to run on.
As long as they're short of IQ 100 they're not ten times as intelligent as a human, so why would they need the complexity to go up?
... I'm not sure that works at all.
Okay, it's not how GURPS does it, I'm sure, but I quite like the numbers that come out of it if I use that. You get smart people using up more resources, but not by such vast amounts. You can get a godlike artificial intelligence without adding another 900 people to your gestalt network. Basic defines godlike stats as those above 20. Which is a pretty small god. But 15 or above is amazing, everyone will notice it and comment on it, it will probably define you. 15 is, basically, hot stuff. Anything above 15 you'll only ever need for incredibly tricky things or contests with others above 15. So 20 is completely spectacular.
So we have our minds, and if we want to run 1978 of them we need the rest for CR6 programs to run the VR on, probably. Unless we only need 1998 and some VR managers. Wish I understood that bit of the rules.
1978 C8 programs can be 1978 people with IQ between 8 and 14.
or 989 people with IQ 15-17
or 659 people with IQ 18-20.
One would not even want 494 people with IQ 21-23. Godlike beings running around in those numbers? No thanks.
But the Landlord is right up there, at least 18, preferably 22. That's the Basic set Digital Mind IQ/2, no messing around. That sounds like it's within the rules until you poke the rules really hard. Seems reasonable. And he'd take up 4 times as much space as an average person.
So that's 1 godlike + 1974 average people.
Or of course you can mix and match them, give them a sprinkle of the exceptional people, give him an opposing godlike or two. It won't take you below 1,500 ME unless you really start messing about.
But would you want to preserve only your brightest? That's a pretty big decision.
Are there a bunch of really stupid programs being VR people?
Ultratech has Dreamgames, with an interactive cast, as Complexity 6 or at most Complexity 7.
Dreamgames don't last long, usually. Tens of hours of experienced time.
I don't know, does their virtuality have quests and a plot?
Are there distinct races of Mind Emulates and, what, Drones and Weak AI? People and holodeck characters, even if the people are only running as holoprojections!
It's a dangerous sort of world, if there's people who can be written off as unreal.
Only the real people could hack the matrix. Magic is a quality of the creative ME. Buuuuut, there's nothing to say the natural laws of the VR can't include magic like abilities. So doing something that would be unnatural in the real world isn't any indicator of being real. How could they tell each other apart?
Or is it just a really small world?
The competition to be one of the Awake would be absolutely fierce, either way. Bringing a specific mind out of storage and into play would be a Resurrection spell, but it would require the sacrifice of enough other minds to make room, no two ways about it. If one mind gets dead in the Matrix, is the next one chosen at random? Or is it a random handful, left to compete with each other somehow? Or the ever popular selective admission. You couldn't work towards points though, the limit is physical, you can't wake up long enough.
You could elect to share your runtime with someone, to work shifts with them. Or the whole world could be on shifts to share out the wake space.
If one of the bodies plugged in to the Matrix is yours, it doesn't make you immortal in the Matrix, it doesn't guarantee you will be awake. But, for fairness, it does give you a second chance. You die in the Matrix, you can compete against your replacement. But if you lose, they get a chance at using your meat self. Hmmm, would electing to sleep protect your meat self?
You may sleep in the Matrix, but if someone wants to use your body to get out, is that an erase and replace, or an overwrite?
The competition thing does sound a bit like that Red Dwarf episode. Holograms with limited space, dead mens shoes, all that. Very similar.
If I combine the numbers with the idea they can run 10 times slower if they pretend they're a complexity smaller, I think that means I can run 10 times more people. 1,974 at real speeds C8, 19,740 at ten times slower C6, 197,400 at 100 times slower C5, 1,974,000 at 1,000 times slower C4, 19,740,000 at 10,000 times slower C3 - which would mean they lived 1 year in the 10,000 years since the city was 'lost', which is a bit ridiculous. Interesting, but ridiculous. It's also more people than would fit in a megacomputer, though there's still easily more stored in a cargo hold. And the competition wouldn't exactly be spectacular with that many awake, you could amble around and just take turns with the other half of the memories. So if I want the last 10,000 years to have passed in 100 years of Matrix time, which is time for the old wizards to get very old and for the young to have a lot of turnover, then that's only 1 to 100. 197,400 people are up and around in a lifelike small nation, but they know there's many millions who want the chance. Competition, but not necessarily harsh.
If the component minds drop below 100, suddenly only 19,740 minds are running, at the same time differential. 177,660 people would simply disappear, or drop into enchanted sleep, however the VR represents the dormant minds. All that from a single godlike wizard escaping!
... of course the Landlord having 100 times the time to sort anything out makes it really pretty likely he's going to stop any escape before it happens.
But that's always true.
So what happens is outside/physical, hence at the same reaction speed as the Landlord.
One being gets unplugged by Darwin with a grenade. And it crashes the Matrix down a whole complexity. They have Darwin's body to plug in, but he's no way smart enough to replace the one who just escaped. As evidenced by the grenade thing.
If you've got 177,660 missing people then the remaining 19,740 are seriously likely to want somebody back badly enough to kill for it. Their society just suffered a disaster of epic proportions. They're going to be a hell of a mess in there. Plus there will be vast swathes of the VR that are suddenly uninhabited.
Of course if I'm willing to let it be 1,000 years inside for 10,000 years outside we might still get one incredibly old wizard, but there's been a society around for long enough people have moved on, possibly in ways unrecogniseable to the founders. And anyone returning straight from the sleepers would only remember the founder world. New minds waking up won't know the rules. There might be serious newbie turnover.
It won't progress precisely like a natural civilisation because there won't be any children... unless there's a magic to birth an AI? It would require a sacrifice to make room, but could make a completely new mind.
Then there would only be 19,740 people for that whole millennium though. Which is less a nation and more a campus. And when the complexity crashed they'd all know 9 people who weren't there any more, so, harsh reactions. And 1974 people is a small enough number I can imagine it, kind of like high school, or a couple of high schools. But then 19,740 is very much like university, and I can imagine that too.
If I stick to 100 years having passed in the last 10,000 then they had 197,400 people alive in those years, with a small nation to spread out into, so they might live all in a city or they might wander off. After the complexity crash they're still living at 1 hour to every 100 of ours, a serious time lag, but they've got 19,740 people, who have all lost 90% of their people. (Or have a random distribution of who they lost, some having everyone and some having nobody.)
2 C11, 20 C10, 200 C9, 2000 C8
4 C8 + 19,960 C7 at 1,000 year for 10,000 of ours
4 C8 + 199,600 C6 @ 100 years for 10,000 of ours
wait, every one of those C6 people would need 1 VR interface and ever 10 would need a VR manager.
I haven't been taking that into account as I up the number of people.
1:10:10 => 199,600 all through the C6 level.
9,505:95,045:95,045 = 199,595
5 spaces in a VR manager empty, 5 C6 programs can run, that's room for 2 more minds. So there's, just, room for visitors.
And that's more minds than I thought anyways.
199,595 people experience 100 years in the last 10,000.
Then the Matrix crashes a complexity.
Suddenly there's only 19,959 people around, and they're still only experiencing 1 day for 100 of ours.
That puts them at a serious disadvantage, compared to the outside world. If they felt threatened enough, they might discuss dropping time rates, down to 1 day for 10 of ours for only 1,959 people.
And because the system is only Complexity 10 without that crucial mind, it can only run 10 CR 9 or 100 CR8 programs, so only 94 or so people could run at real time. 20 CR7, 200 CR6, needing 95 VR interfaces and 10 VR managers, 105 CR6 programs. That leaves you 95 CR6 programs to play with.
... I still don't know if that's how VR interface + manager programs work.
Anyways, talk about pressure, if you want to be one of the 94, when to start with you were 199,595!
But if they leave it to the Landlord to fight for them, they could keep on with 19,959 thousand awake, and very slow.
How would you get a near majority of people to vote for hibernation?
Doesn't seem likely.
But the ones aggressive enough they wouldn't want to leave it to others, wouldn't want to leave it to the Landlord, are not going to be ones who are big on voting.
They'd have to be pretty ridiculously badass to win a fight at those odds either.
But, funnily enough, there are enough real world bodies to go around for that many people.
And there's one of their own out there.
If he does a prison break... well if he leaves 10 component minds in there the Landlord at least has a CR10 machine to run his CR8 self on.
But there are 90 monsters no longer in the basement.
... it would be really quite important to really quite a lot of people to get that one monster mind back into its box. Or replace it post haste, even if it takes four ordinary people to do it.
I don't know if I want to play with time dilation AND mind emulation AND monsters AND possession by squirmy biogadget brain. I mean, you'd never run out of story, but some of it would take a very long time to play through. Ten to one is about the worst ratio you could do anything with if you want to swap people in and out of the real world, and they'd only get a couple of hours of adventure in a day.
On the other hand, they wouldn't be ageing a single minute.
(Not that you can combine suspended animation and VR in GURPS rules. I handwave because I want a lost civilisation in cans, and you can't do that at hibernation rates.)
You'd still spend more than a week to play a day in VR.
Doable, but all kinds of ANYthing can happen out in the world.
It does give going into VR an extra down side. But do you need one when there's monsters and magic and a reasonably good chance someone will kill you and take over your body before you get the hang of the rules?
The thing is, if they've had ten thousand years of being VR people with 1974 people awake at once knowing millions are sleeping and waiting for their turn, then it seems unlikely any one person has been awake that whole time, and if they have been, they're more alien than Methos. The Really Old Guy at least lived half that time in a world with consistent physical laws and human relationships that involved being born as a new person, growing up, growing old, and death by old age. A VR might have a mechanism for death by old age simply to make room for more people, keep it fair. But making a new mind would require new empty and clean storage space and one of the currently awake to go dormant to make room for another program. It would be added pressure on a system that's already impossibly overloaded. The social pressure against it would be immense. The whole system of human relationships skews if you detach it from the cycle of birth and reproduction. The longer you give these people to not live in our human cycles, the less human they're going to be. But you'd combine it with the constant influx of newbies who only just went to sleep, as humans, in a physical world. The old would get ever further adrift from the young. I don't think I can extrapolate that over ten thousand or even one thousand years. I think I want time dilation just to keep it around one hundred years, and one really old but currently imaginable person. It would still involve a century of culture shift more epic than the change from 1900 to 2000, but it seems more imaginable. That means we're back to
199,595 people experience 100 years in the last 10,000.
Then the Matrix crashes a complexity.
Suddenly there's only 19,959 people around, and they're still only experiencing 1 day for 100 of ours.
If they all went dormant while up to 86 component minds got out and pushed, or hunted for the 4 minds they're missing to make up their world again... that's a lot of monsters in the basement. Possibly very smart monsters. Possibly many daft ones instead.
It would seem simpler for them to track down their missing monster, but on two counts it is not. For one, he's much smarter than a human, and more knowledgeable about the local ground, so even with his magic unavailable in the no mana area known as reality, he's still going to be a tough customer. For another, did he just break out of the Possession? If he did, he's immune to being possessed again. Perhaps he didn't break it, it just let go reflexively when damaged. But then he'd have to be possessed again. And now the very smart monster remains very smart, but the AI is running on a lower complexity box. If he has to scale his IQ down, he's at a disadvantage.
Simpler by far to round up any humans they can get their hands on, and shove them in a box, in whatever condition since the boxes can also heal. Dead or alive, as long as they don't mash any brains.
Then our adventurers are all in the box, and the world can run at a higher complexity again, but has to give them all a chance to be awake.
Are there enough adventurers to do that?
... just about. Only just. Most of them left the dome much earlier.
The time differential in the VR gives them a long lead time to search for their people before the people in the VR can react to them. One second in there is 100 seconds out here, so if you see someone pulled into a box you have more than a minute before anyone in the box can possibly react, 1 second being the smallest unit of combat time GURPS plays with for humans.
Once they're in the VR though, they can try and talk their way out of it. Maybe there are enough minds like this, but there could be even more if you just let us out to go invite people in...
Plus, the smartest monster is discovering he can have the whole campus to himself, but not get free.
And it's getting very cold out there. Very.
He might just give up and go home.
Activity! Conflict! Drama!
I think that's several twists more plot than I really need.
Plus even if they get their complexity back, they might only run a whole campus of minds, so they can think of how to deal with the new situation at only a small time disadvantage. The long term situation I want since the city was Lost doesn't have to be the adventure time situation. Especially since, if they dump down to very small numbers of minds awake, those would be the only ones deciding anything.
My math might be wrong. But it's pretty.
Still need to do some deciding, but it looks like it's a very small world, in the basement. It could be planet sized to look at, but in population, small.
Woah, I've been working on this for a lot of hours, and it's just useless imaginary maths that I've probably got wrong anyway. Oops?
Still, it is absolutely stuffed full of story idea. I think I like it.
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Date: 2012-03-02 08:49 pm (UTC)Bravo!
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Date: 2012-03-03 08:44 pm (UTC)comment any time.
thanks.