Avengers and Gondor
Aug. 10th, 2012 05:12 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
beccaelizabethToday, watched Return of the King.
Kept getting interrupted in the good bits and having to sit there with the pause on for ten minutes.
So, kept getting ideas for if there was an Avengers fusion.
... because my brain is full of Avengers, not because they are very much at all like hobbits.
There's a whole lot of armour around in Gondor. Even though the only time we see people making weapons and armour it's because they are Evil and stinky and all that bad stuff. Clearly it's only wrong if you make more than one piece at a time or don't hang out in a forest while working.
Anyways, lots and lots and lots of armour. So obviously there's someone there who makes armour for them. So that's Tony.
Since he likes making things so much he could be a Dwarf, but of all the things I dislike about Tolkien, the biological determinism is top of the list. Or, to put it another way, racism. Ugly people who aren't white? Evil! Blergh. The near total absence of women is NOT made up for by Eowyn, though obviously her moment of awesome rocks.
I'm also no fan of kings. ... actually that's nearly a lie, there's tons of stories about kings that make me like the idea for 90 minutes at a stretch, for one specific fictional good king at a time. But the idea of kings, the idea that someone's blood make them better, that you can have family hanging out in the back of beyond for thousands of years that still turn out to be Just That Awesome, the idea that kings are important.
:-p to that.
... I know I'm English and we have monarchs. I also know how I'd vote given the chance to vote them to going away. A cause of some disharmony with mum, because she likes monarchy, she thinks us giving them all the presents reflects well on us as a country or something, I don't know I thought it sounded stupid. I don't see why she doesn't have a council house with stupid neighbours like the rest of us.
*grumble grump*
ANYway, LotR is rather substantially about Good Masters and Good Servants, contrasted with the bad of course, and by the end of the story they may have put in place good masters, but they haven't exactly had a lot of social mobility going on. And it pisses me off.
Not while I'm actually watching, mind, because I'm busy going <3 at everyone, but that's the problem with fiction, it's too cute.
I don't want to write a story about how everyone's parentage and place of birth determines their character. If I write about Avengers, it's more about how very unexpectedly different they grew, at least for ones I know some of their background for.
I don't want to write orcs and elves and dwarves really, because I don't want that big = in the middle of their definitions. Like, if Tony makes things because he's a dwarf, then that's the whole story, that's just what those dudes do. If Tony makes armour because he grew up on the edges of a never ending war, that's a whole different thing. And very different than making him American too, because the war isn't just across the river in any of them Iron Man origins. And if he's human then there's loads of different people who are biologically similar but culturally different. Which is how people work.
I don't want to write racist assumptions into the universe because people don't work that way so everyone would be less realistic and I need all the help I can get.
So, they're in a really awesome city with metal armour and huge walls and siege engines and swords and bows and all sorts, and at least two generations of Stark men have been arming people for the war that tends to roll up to their doorstep.
And still there's ways Tony don't fit, because there was a bit about how Gondor declined because it thought ancestors more important than descendents, and kept counting it's former glories instead of building futures. But that's a good not-fit, that's a way he's always been the square peg in his own society, he's not just watching the decline of men, he's setting out to build a new future for them.
All the ways Tony Stark doesn't fit an epic fantasy setting are ways I end up not liking the genre. What was so great about yesterdays anyways?
Tony the armourer.
And instead of being famous for a broken sword, their King had a Shield.
(His guards are still known as SHIELDs in honor of that)
But: Steve is not a King. That's kind of key to him. The other side were setting themselves up as special, he's just a kid from Brooklyn.
If the Stark men got tired of waiting for the King to get off his arse and return, maybe they just set out to make one. Not just a super soldier project, then.
But I was also thinking, there's that bit where Aragorn turns out to be nearly ninety. Steve is, but he didn't live it all. But there's another Avenger who, possibly, maybe, depending which wiki I read for possible backgrounds, might be a lot older than she appears.
Natasha as a Ranger? Slipping in and out of all the dark places. Rangers as spies.
Clint with his bow is an obvious Elf, except I'm not having elves because boring. (I know I've thrown out everything that makes it Tolkien OR epic fantasy by now, but *shrugs* I was bored).
But then Clint-and-Natasha can be like Arwen-and-Aragorn. Only very, very different. All the different.
If it's Natasha who is the secret heir of a lost throne... erm, Romanov? I think my story just hopped geography rather.
ANYways, if it's her who is the lost heir, she's not quite the King they were waiting for.
I want to play with that.
I have no idea what Clint would be doing aside from following her around with a bow. That seems insufficiently characteristic.
Bruce, I was thinking how the war engines of Mordor aren't particularly complex mechanically, they just have cave trolls to make them work. The wealth of their land is in biological weapons. Someone trying to get a little of that for Team Good could end up Hulked.
And I know there's Thor and his family and some really obvious places to put him, but I can never think of anything to do with Thor, he's like a puppy that throws lightning, I have no Thor feelings or ideas or anything.
I guess I have the same epic fantasy problems with Thor and his whole corner of the universe, frost giants et al, as I do with Tolkien and suchlike. Which don't work when I'm remixing it, it's too much alike.
Major problem with this idea? If I don't want ugly evil enemies with no motive except possibly wanting to eat everyone, I have to invent an enemy to be at forever war with, which tends to make everyone sound like bastards. If I stick with ugly evil enemies I won't like me much.
I wants to end up with the city being run with a round table sort of thing, Team instead of King, and Pepper as a steward because she'd be awesome at running a country.
If I get rid of the magic then instead of going through dark places to recruit dead kings Natasha can go recruit ordinary alive people who have been kicked out of the other places. Like, criminals and suchlike. Because she'd know the value of second chances.
So now I want to write the parts of this where the lost Queen of some swish city grows up a thief and a killer and at some point meets the archer dude and someone tempts someone away from their responsibilities and somebody reaches out with second chances and then together they go recruiting, like, Robin Hood, to fight... yeah, again I get stuck on that part.
Orcs is so easy. Lies is so easy. Mostly wars have sides who are much alike.
And Howard and Tony trying to pull a fast one by designing a better King, but Steve refusing to be raised above others, only wanting to be Captain because he's needed there. That works too. And I wants to bring the Howling Commandos, cause they were all kinds of everyone in that film, fantasy needs an anti racism dose.
So there's about as much chance of any of this being written as there is of any of the other bunnies I've had lately. Writing appears to not be happening.
But there's shiny bits in the ideas.
Also thought on: MarySue me being a bit TARDIS, with translation and teleport.
... because one does not simply walk into Mordor.
But if one is a TARDIS one can materialise there.
(which is worse than the eagles problem)
And then nobody trusts you because (a) you can go walk right up to the enemy and (b) you understand their foul language. (really, if they couldn't talk to each other, no wonder all the fightings)
Mostly I was trying to figure out a dramatic story about NOT fighting a way, and being someone who carries messages between very tense factions and tries to negotiate their way out of it sounds like fun.
Especially someone with a boyfriend on one side (who looks a lot like Tony) and a girlfriend on the other (undecided, but potentially deciding a lot about who the enemy is. I mean, if it's an X-Man, then there's all that Mutant stuff to play with, but nobody ends up looking good. I do get instant plot that way though.)
Having to arrange a political marriage to turn the tension into an alliance is a good one, especially if it's an arranged marriage between ones lovers. Which, obviously, resolves as a threesome. Of massive political consequences if discovered.
King Tony just doesn't feel right though, or even Prince. Yeah, he inherits a lot, but he invents a hell of a lot. If you're going to drop one side of that, it isn't the invention.
Getting a situation where you can make stirring speeches that basically amount to 'get out there and die! preferably not alone!' , well, that's kind of easy, we have a lot of examples.
Getting a situation where everyone's expecting that speech and then trying to change it with a speech more like 'go home and have a lot of sex, that works much better'... er, less precedent? Well, in stuff I read.
Okay, I'm bored of having ideas, I should just not write bunnies and only write short fiction that is based on the bunny of the day. I'd be epic productive in short order.
... but I tend to have epic bunnies of multi season potential, because fun worldbuilding is fun, so chucking a couple thousand words at a page is unlikely to do it much justice.
Kept getting interrupted in the good bits and having to sit there with the pause on for ten minutes.
So, kept getting ideas for if there was an Avengers fusion.
... because my brain is full of Avengers, not because they are very much at all like hobbits.
There's a whole lot of armour around in Gondor. Even though the only time we see people making weapons and armour it's because they are Evil and stinky and all that bad stuff. Clearly it's only wrong if you make more than one piece at a time or don't hang out in a forest while working.
Anyways, lots and lots and lots of armour. So obviously there's someone there who makes armour for them. So that's Tony.
Since he likes making things so much he could be a Dwarf, but of all the things I dislike about Tolkien, the biological determinism is top of the list. Or, to put it another way, racism. Ugly people who aren't white? Evil! Blergh. The near total absence of women is NOT made up for by Eowyn, though obviously her moment of awesome rocks.
I'm also no fan of kings. ... actually that's nearly a lie, there's tons of stories about kings that make me like the idea for 90 minutes at a stretch, for one specific fictional good king at a time. But the idea of kings, the idea that someone's blood make them better, that you can have family hanging out in the back of beyond for thousands of years that still turn out to be Just That Awesome, the idea that kings are important.
:-p to that.
... I know I'm English and we have monarchs. I also know how I'd vote given the chance to vote them to going away. A cause of some disharmony with mum, because she likes monarchy, she thinks us giving them all the presents reflects well on us as a country or something, I don't know I thought it sounded stupid. I don't see why she doesn't have a council house with stupid neighbours like the rest of us.
*grumble grump*
ANYway, LotR is rather substantially about Good Masters and Good Servants, contrasted with the bad of course, and by the end of the story they may have put in place good masters, but they haven't exactly had a lot of social mobility going on. And it pisses me off.
Not while I'm actually watching, mind, because I'm busy going <3 at everyone, but that's the problem with fiction, it's too cute.
I don't want to write a story about how everyone's parentage and place of birth determines their character. If I write about Avengers, it's more about how very unexpectedly different they grew, at least for ones I know some of their background for.
I don't want to write orcs and elves and dwarves really, because I don't want that big = in the middle of their definitions. Like, if Tony makes things because he's a dwarf, then that's the whole story, that's just what those dudes do. If Tony makes armour because he grew up on the edges of a never ending war, that's a whole different thing. And very different than making him American too, because the war isn't just across the river in any of them Iron Man origins. And if he's human then there's loads of different people who are biologically similar but culturally different. Which is how people work.
I don't want to write racist assumptions into the universe because people don't work that way so everyone would be less realistic and I need all the help I can get.
So, they're in a really awesome city with metal armour and huge walls and siege engines and swords and bows and all sorts, and at least two generations of Stark men have been arming people for the war that tends to roll up to their doorstep.
And still there's ways Tony don't fit, because there was a bit about how Gondor declined because it thought ancestors more important than descendents, and kept counting it's former glories instead of building futures. But that's a good not-fit, that's a way he's always been the square peg in his own society, he's not just watching the decline of men, he's setting out to build a new future for them.
All the ways Tony Stark doesn't fit an epic fantasy setting are ways I end up not liking the genre. What was so great about yesterdays anyways?
Tony the armourer.
And instead of being famous for a broken sword, their King had a Shield.
(His guards are still known as SHIELDs in honor of that)
But: Steve is not a King. That's kind of key to him. The other side were setting themselves up as special, he's just a kid from Brooklyn.
If the Stark men got tired of waiting for the King to get off his arse and return, maybe they just set out to make one. Not just a super soldier project, then.
But I was also thinking, there's that bit where Aragorn turns out to be nearly ninety. Steve is, but he didn't live it all. But there's another Avenger who, possibly, maybe, depending which wiki I read for possible backgrounds, might be a lot older than she appears.
Natasha as a Ranger? Slipping in and out of all the dark places. Rangers as spies.
Clint with his bow is an obvious Elf, except I'm not having elves because boring. (I know I've thrown out everything that makes it Tolkien OR epic fantasy by now, but *shrugs* I was bored).
But then Clint-and-Natasha can be like Arwen-and-Aragorn. Only very, very different. All the different.
If it's Natasha who is the secret heir of a lost throne... erm, Romanov? I think my story just hopped geography rather.
ANYways, if it's her who is the lost heir, she's not quite the King they were waiting for.
I want to play with that.
I have no idea what Clint would be doing aside from following her around with a bow. That seems insufficiently characteristic.
Bruce, I was thinking how the war engines of Mordor aren't particularly complex mechanically, they just have cave trolls to make them work. The wealth of their land is in biological weapons. Someone trying to get a little of that for Team Good could end up Hulked.
And I know there's Thor and his family and some really obvious places to put him, but I can never think of anything to do with Thor, he's like a puppy that throws lightning, I have no Thor feelings or ideas or anything.
I guess I have the same epic fantasy problems with Thor and his whole corner of the universe, frost giants et al, as I do with Tolkien and suchlike. Which don't work when I'm remixing it, it's too much alike.
Major problem with this idea? If I don't want ugly evil enemies with no motive except possibly wanting to eat everyone, I have to invent an enemy to be at forever war with, which tends to make everyone sound like bastards. If I stick with ugly evil enemies I won't like me much.
I wants to end up with the city being run with a round table sort of thing, Team instead of King, and Pepper as a steward because she'd be awesome at running a country.
If I get rid of the magic then instead of going through dark places to recruit dead kings Natasha can go recruit ordinary alive people who have been kicked out of the other places. Like, criminals and suchlike. Because she'd know the value of second chances.
So now I want to write the parts of this where the lost Queen of some swish city grows up a thief and a killer and at some point meets the archer dude and someone tempts someone away from their responsibilities and somebody reaches out with second chances and then together they go recruiting, like, Robin Hood, to fight... yeah, again I get stuck on that part.
Orcs is so easy. Lies is so easy. Mostly wars have sides who are much alike.
And Howard and Tony trying to pull a fast one by designing a better King, but Steve refusing to be raised above others, only wanting to be Captain because he's needed there. That works too. And I wants to bring the Howling Commandos, cause they were all kinds of everyone in that film, fantasy needs an anti racism dose.
So there's about as much chance of any of this being written as there is of any of the other bunnies I've had lately. Writing appears to not be happening.
But there's shiny bits in the ideas.
Also thought on: MarySue me being a bit TARDIS, with translation and teleport.
... because one does not simply walk into Mordor.
But if one is a TARDIS one can materialise there.
(which is worse than the eagles problem)
And then nobody trusts you because (a) you can go walk right up to the enemy and (b) you understand their foul language. (really, if they couldn't talk to each other, no wonder all the fightings)
Mostly I was trying to figure out a dramatic story about NOT fighting a way, and being someone who carries messages between very tense factions and tries to negotiate their way out of it sounds like fun.
Especially someone with a boyfriend on one side (who looks a lot like Tony) and a girlfriend on the other (undecided, but potentially deciding a lot about who the enemy is. I mean, if it's an X-Man, then there's all that Mutant stuff to play with, but nobody ends up looking good. I do get instant plot that way though.)
Having to arrange a political marriage to turn the tension into an alliance is a good one, especially if it's an arranged marriage between ones lovers. Which, obviously, resolves as a threesome. Of massive political consequences if discovered.
King Tony just doesn't feel right though, or even Prince. Yeah, he inherits a lot, but he invents a hell of a lot. If you're going to drop one side of that, it isn't the invention.
Getting a situation where you can make stirring speeches that basically amount to 'get out there and die! preferably not alone!' , well, that's kind of easy, we have a lot of examples.
Getting a situation where everyone's expecting that speech and then trying to change it with a speech more like 'go home and have a lot of sex, that works much better'... er, less precedent? Well, in stuff I read.
Okay, I'm bored of having ideas, I should just not write bunnies and only write short fiction that is based on the bunny of the day. I'd be epic productive in short order.
... but I tend to have epic bunnies of multi season potential, because fun worldbuilding is fun, so chucking a couple thousand words at a page is unlikely to do it much justice.
no subject
Date: 2012-08-15 07:16 am (UTC)Not that I ever write anything. But "puppy that throws lighting" might be in there if I do.
no subject
Date: 2012-08-15 07:01 pm (UTC)