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beccaelizabethThis whole celebrity history thing is not my speed. This week they explain that Tolkien was secretly mostly quoting? There's a lot about the whole setup that didn't work for me.
On the other hand: Mick and Len.
Finally, more or less actual Len.
... the more or less being the frustrating part.
So... Len punching Mick as proof of life is... I mean it's practical, but pretty much abusive. And the whole 'only I respect you' riff is abuser talk too.
But, slight problem, it's a plausible read of the season thus far.
I mean, the Legends don't treat Amaya and Mick the same, even when they're having the exact same reaction to the temptations of the spear. To Mick is just 'not now' and no actual conversation, no trying to talk him out of it. Only Amaya listened. But Amaya gets logic and conversation.
And Martin is an arrogant ass. Mick told him what happened, he dismissed it, and then he blamed Mick for that.
Ray is the only one to raise the whole 'maybe we suck' side of this equation and the best anyone else can do for backup is Rip saying Mick isn't entirely stupid.
Mick is big, rude, abruptly violent, and he did set some papers on fire trying to destroy the spear, but that's the first actual screw up we've seen from him. He threatens and he's drunk as close to all the time as he can arrange. I can see how all that's a problem.
But he's with this team on the basis that he'll save them because of course they'd save him back. And with the whole founding father bit? They *didn't*. Nate and Amaya stopped to have sex, only arriving in time to play backup as he saved himself. After all that 'that was implied' bit. They weren't good team to him.
And he has been to them.
So Sara trusted him when she put the spear in his hands, but she doesn't respect him, talk with him, know him, listen to his contribution. Plus things she said at the vanishing point are just... yeah, lets bring him back to where the trauma was, find him having a flashback, and then use that opportunity to tell him off and get him to jump to orders.
Combine this thematically with Tolkien, the war, and shell shock?
Mick's dealing with the same thing, PTSD, but Tolkien got more support and respect for it in one acquaintance than Mick has in a season.
I can see what the story is trying to do, the story respects Mick, he's got a ton of meaty emotional stuff going on, he's the heart of this story.
But his crew do not respect him.
Also, Sara gets him moving with "Do you think this is what Snart wants?"
... it shouldn't be a surprise that finding an actual Snart to want things changes the math.
Add the conversation with Martin about Jax having to learn how to live without his partner, we get what the show thinks Mick's problem is, that he doesn't know how to be without Snart.
And all this about them seeing him as a thug and a criminal? That's the life Snart is here to represent. See the connotations of everything they refer to, heist, when did we ever destroy what we steal.
The problem here, and it's a big one, is they are comparing stealing things for the Legends with stealing things for Snart. So Snart can live. So Mick's family can live.
And they've explicitly established those things can happen.
So... what exactly is the problem?
Rip saying power corrupts?
Theologically the problem is pretty clear: they have no grasp whatsoever of theology. The thing with the blood establishes that. Christ's blood is not actually rare, ritually speaking. And the spear doesn't *have* the power of god, god has that, it's just connected.
But this is comic book theology so who knows?
So on what basis are they establishing their ethics?
Stargirl set up Camelot and they let her, so it's not 'leave no trace'.
And the classic hero thing of saving lives? Nope, they're for some reason not permitted to do that.
Tolkien's ring was evil and tempted people towards evil, and he established pretty clearly that was because of the one that made it and the power it channeled.
God is not generally considered evil, so why are they acting as if a divine artefact is?
What is the Spear for?
There's temporal problems they can't fix, paradoxes that tore a hole in the sky.
Eobard Thawne's non existence is a problem. A really big temporal problem. Of exactly the sort they should want to fix.
But they don't. Because ... reasons.
Sara Lance, Holy Lance, this is going to be about her.
At some point she decided time was sacred.
But she's not had a conversation to explain why the change in viewpoint. She just... gave up on saving her sister. Why?
Why matters.
Until we have a why, Mick leaving with Len to save Len's life
is the good guy thing to do.
This story is so frustrating because the whole ethics depends on the made up rules they never bother explaining.
Why can they change things when they want to but must not change these?
Couldn't it just be changed more carefully and smarter?
You know logically you can give Eo another fifteen years of life, put him back in his timeline, and then just have something lethal happen to him at the end of that when the singularity happens. That would repair time. And achieve this version's goals.
And if you're bringing the divine into it, which this definitely is, then their souls an the fate of their souls goes in the math. If Eo never existed, did his soul? Is time travel a way to erase someone from their afterlife? Or does god keep a different set of books, and remember the lost too?
If you call an artefact divine, this matters.
Not least because it's another moral basis to argue for and against saving people. Sacing lives and saving souls being different math.
... okay, I can get wound up about hat it isn't doing, or I can let it go.
Amaya gets tempted but outvoted, Mick gets tempted and does... what looks very much like the right thing, with the wrong people. Because his team wouldn't listen or explain.
And Snart looks right, though he shouldn't have been.
Also, seeing that the story skips over his recruitment, anything can go in that gap. We don't know if this is a free willed Snart or a drugged, hypnotised, or otherwise modified one.
But I'm pretty sure he's from immediately after getting his cold gun, before he went to get Mick. Mick hasn't chosen him back yet. And he definitely hasn't chosen him over the score, they haven't stolen 'fire and ice' yet. So they're fragile after a breakup. Last time this involved a lot of pointing guns at each other, and that after months of learning them. So they're not the team that joined the Waverider. And Snart is at his most cold, icing random civilians to test the gun, and killing his own crew when they want out. Of what we've seen, his worst self.
The one Mick knew for years, was partners with.
Who treats him worse, with the sit heel stuff and the punching, than we saw before, except to get him out of danger in 2046 and at the Oculus.
... it persistently pisses me off that the rest of the crew claim Len died for them. He died to save Mick, since Mick was the only one in danger right then. It was for his partner.
Mick of course might not want to hear that.
Snart finds a Mick who has been hallucinating and yet is left alone by his current crew. Snart has pretty good reason to worry about him. But, punching isnlt easily read as worry.
... unless you've seen every other time...
Len who believes the Spear is his way to survive... actually, let's pause there. How did they get Len to believe? I mean, this isn't much after the particle accelerator explosion, Central isn't as weird as it's going to get, and 'divine artefact' is a big sell at the best of times. So there's either a conversation or something more direct going in there.
But, Len who believes the spear is the only way to survive is Len in a different corner than we've seen him before. No strings on him? But he's acting as if he believes the map they've told him. Doesn't mesh. When he discovered time travel he used it to try and save ... his father, in a way, but more directly Lisa and himself. Discovering the spear... what would he plan?
well next episode has one answer, obviously.
As far as story purpose goes, using Snart from right back at the beginning means he represents yesteryears and the criminal life, without any of the ambiguities of being a Rogue.
Mick has moved on some since that.
So, we'll see how they fit...
But the classic is to get everything you ever wanted and realise you don't want it any more
and
well
Len would be part of that.
I am not looking forwards to what we're going to get.
On the other hand: Mick and Len.
Finally, more or less actual Len.
... the more or less being the frustrating part.
So... Len punching Mick as proof of life is... I mean it's practical, but pretty much abusive. And the whole 'only I respect you' riff is abuser talk too.
But, slight problem, it's a plausible read of the season thus far.
I mean, the Legends don't treat Amaya and Mick the same, even when they're having the exact same reaction to the temptations of the spear. To Mick is just 'not now' and no actual conversation, no trying to talk him out of it. Only Amaya listened. But Amaya gets logic and conversation.
And Martin is an arrogant ass. Mick told him what happened, he dismissed it, and then he blamed Mick for that.
Ray is the only one to raise the whole 'maybe we suck' side of this equation and the best anyone else can do for backup is Rip saying Mick isn't entirely stupid.
Mick is big, rude, abruptly violent, and he did set some papers on fire trying to destroy the spear, but that's the first actual screw up we've seen from him. He threatens and he's drunk as close to all the time as he can arrange. I can see how all that's a problem.
But he's with this team on the basis that he'll save them because of course they'd save him back. And with the whole founding father bit? They *didn't*. Nate and Amaya stopped to have sex, only arriving in time to play backup as he saved himself. After all that 'that was implied' bit. They weren't good team to him.
And he has been to them.
So Sara trusted him when she put the spear in his hands, but she doesn't respect him, talk with him, know him, listen to his contribution. Plus things she said at the vanishing point are just... yeah, lets bring him back to where the trauma was, find him having a flashback, and then use that opportunity to tell him off and get him to jump to orders.
Combine this thematically with Tolkien, the war, and shell shock?
Mick's dealing with the same thing, PTSD, but Tolkien got more support and respect for it in one acquaintance than Mick has in a season.
I can see what the story is trying to do, the story respects Mick, he's got a ton of meaty emotional stuff going on, he's the heart of this story.
But his crew do not respect him.
Also, Sara gets him moving with "Do you think this is what Snart wants?"
... it shouldn't be a surprise that finding an actual Snart to want things changes the math.
Add the conversation with Martin about Jax having to learn how to live without his partner, we get what the show thinks Mick's problem is, that he doesn't know how to be without Snart.
And all this about them seeing him as a thug and a criminal? That's the life Snart is here to represent. See the connotations of everything they refer to, heist, when did we ever destroy what we steal.
The problem here, and it's a big one, is they are comparing stealing things for the Legends with stealing things for Snart. So Snart can live. So Mick's family can live.
And they've explicitly established those things can happen.
So... what exactly is the problem?
Rip saying power corrupts?
Theologically the problem is pretty clear: they have no grasp whatsoever of theology. The thing with the blood establishes that. Christ's blood is not actually rare, ritually speaking. And the spear doesn't *have* the power of god, god has that, it's just connected.
But this is comic book theology so who knows?
So on what basis are they establishing their ethics?
Stargirl set up Camelot and they let her, so it's not 'leave no trace'.
And the classic hero thing of saving lives? Nope, they're for some reason not permitted to do that.
Tolkien's ring was evil and tempted people towards evil, and he established pretty clearly that was because of the one that made it and the power it channeled.
God is not generally considered evil, so why are they acting as if a divine artefact is?
What is the Spear for?
There's temporal problems they can't fix, paradoxes that tore a hole in the sky.
Eobard Thawne's non existence is a problem. A really big temporal problem. Of exactly the sort they should want to fix.
But they don't. Because ... reasons.
Sara Lance, Holy Lance, this is going to be about her.
At some point she decided time was sacred.
But she's not had a conversation to explain why the change in viewpoint. She just... gave up on saving her sister. Why?
Why matters.
Until we have a why, Mick leaving with Len to save Len's life
is the good guy thing to do.
This story is so frustrating because the whole ethics depends on the made up rules they never bother explaining.
Why can they change things when they want to but must not change these?
Couldn't it just be changed more carefully and smarter?
You know logically you can give Eo another fifteen years of life, put him back in his timeline, and then just have something lethal happen to him at the end of that when the singularity happens. That would repair time. And achieve this version's goals.
And if you're bringing the divine into it, which this definitely is, then their souls an the fate of their souls goes in the math. If Eo never existed, did his soul? Is time travel a way to erase someone from their afterlife? Or does god keep a different set of books, and remember the lost too?
If you call an artefact divine, this matters.
Not least because it's another moral basis to argue for and against saving people. Sacing lives and saving souls being different math.
... okay, I can get wound up about hat it isn't doing, or I can let it go.
Amaya gets tempted but outvoted, Mick gets tempted and does... what looks very much like the right thing, with the wrong people. Because his team wouldn't listen or explain.
And Snart looks right, though he shouldn't have been.
Also, seeing that the story skips over his recruitment, anything can go in that gap. We don't know if this is a free willed Snart or a drugged, hypnotised, or otherwise modified one.
But I'm pretty sure he's from immediately after getting his cold gun, before he went to get Mick. Mick hasn't chosen him back yet. And he definitely hasn't chosen him over the score, they haven't stolen 'fire and ice' yet. So they're fragile after a breakup. Last time this involved a lot of pointing guns at each other, and that after months of learning them. So they're not the team that joined the Waverider. And Snart is at his most cold, icing random civilians to test the gun, and killing his own crew when they want out. Of what we've seen, his worst self.
The one Mick knew for years, was partners with.
Who treats him worse, with the sit heel stuff and the punching, than we saw before, except to get him out of danger in 2046 and at the Oculus.
... it persistently pisses me off that the rest of the crew claim Len died for them. He died to save Mick, since Mick was the only one in danger right then. It was for his partner.
Mick of course might not want to hear that.
Snart finds a Mick who has been hallucinating and yet is left alone by his current crew. Snart has pretty good reason to worry about him. But, punching isnlt easily read as worry.
... unless you've seen every other time...
Len who believes the Spear is his way to survive... actually, let's pause there. How did they get Len to believe? I mean, this isn't much after the particle accelerator explosion, Central isn't as weird as it's going to get, and 'divine artefact' is a big sell at the best of times. So there's either a conversation or something more direct going in there.
But, Len who believes the spear is the only way to survive is Len in a different corner than we've seen him before. No strings on him? But he's acting as if he believes the map they've told him. Doesn't mesh. When he discovered time travel he used it to try and save ... his father, in a way, but more directly Lisa and himself. Discovering the spear... what would he plan?
well next episode has one answer, obviously.
As far as story purpose goes, using Snart from right back at the beginning means he represents yesteryears and the criminal life, without any of the ambiguities of being a Rogue.
Mick has moved on some since that.
So, we'll see how they fit...
But the classic is to get everything you ever wanted and realise you don't want it any more
and
well
Len would be part of that.
I am not looking forwards to what we're going to get.
no subject
Date: 2017-09-03 10:35 pm (UTC)Conclusion from reading about episodes I still haven’t seen:
The Legion pick up Len from right after he gets the cold gun, before he gave the heat gun to Mick.
So Mick never chose him.
Not so much as “Yeah buddy, I’m in.”
Certainly not being offered the out and burning $25 million to stay with Len. (when have we destroyed anything we’ve stolen)
Then what Len remembers is saying they were finished.
If so, from where he’s standing, he has every reason to believe Mick would choose his new crew over him, and no emotional understanding of what Mick has been through, given the last he knew they were split up.
Add to that the conversations - and fights - he doesn’t know they had that renegotiated Mick’s role when Mick felt Len went too far?
“I’m the brains. You’re the muscle. That’s how it’s always been.”
Without that knowledge he’d walk into exactly the same blowups from exactly the same insecurities.Which isn’t the emotional beats we were hoping for at all.