Length of days
Jul. 5th, 2020 08:02 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
beccaelizabethI dreamt that I and my dream husband the Reverse Flash (!) crossed paths with a whole set of people who were truly, beginning of time onwards, immortal.
They had a different awareness of time than the rest of us, even speedsters. Something more like in Arrival, where all the moments had happened, but in a branching and multiple way. So they were aware of multiple timelines. And in every single one of them, these people lived literally forever.
And they were insufferable condescending pricks to the rest of us.
... okay, that's unfair, mostly they just ignored us. So etimes they set assignments. Andmonky one of them referred to us as lesser beings, but that was the general impression.
... were we just being over sensitive?
They didnt all think in lockstep. One of them talked to us to hand out an assignment but said we'd never understand their reasons unless we thought like them, understood their basic philosophy. Actually they mentioned their basic book and said we'd never understand it. So I went to a different one and said the book had been recommended to my attention, and that guy loaned it to me. So they thought differently.
But after that, I dont know if dream me even skim read it, which is frustrating if it's supposed to be a guide to living forever.
Instead I and Eobard Thawne sat next to a lake and talked the philosophy of time and what it would even mean to live that long. To have personal awareness of all of time.
Except it isnt all of time, it's all,of the timelines where they, personally, lived.
And Thawne of all people has a unique perspective on that one.
But thinking about it... it's like the ultimate in choosing safety over... anything, ever. They can perceive the branches where the choice leads to an ending, so even in the smallest ways, they dont choose those.
Which sounds super bland.
And explains why they send other people to do stuff.
But it seems like if they prioritise length of days, and length of days alone, they have to ignore all other measures. Like what they actually do with those days.
I've been thinking about this since I woke up, it's not all dream logic thining.
It's just, like, their philosophy book was very small, like A4 but slim, and they seemed to think that was the important thing? And someone that can remember all of every timeline they lived wouldnt need to keep books around... huh, rereading is a different experience for the rest of us, but they'd never read anything for the first time, all times would be one if they remembered them all already, they'd only have one opinion. Yikes. Hope that's wrong.
But also, there weren't many of them, and they seemed fine with that?
So I think their version of immortality broke their empathy.
Kind of like people who think health is a choice and ill people should just do better. This sort of immortal chose all the life paths that let them live, and they look around at people whose paths end in death, and cant make the leap to understanding that. That experience is so disconnected from their own. So they leave everyone else to their limited lives and perceive it as a failing in them.
... or if they could help someone without any risk to their own lives...
... since when is human interaction entirely without risk?
They couldnt or wouldnt empathise with people who make mortal choices, because empathy involves imagining oneself able to make the same choices. They know every choice they personally would make, and none of them are mortal. Broken empathy. So they cant build bridges from mortal perspectives to their own.
And also from their point of view they see dead people. Thawne sees people who have been dead for centuries and to him that means they might as well be dead right now. Error, say I. But these immortals who remember their whole lives, they'd see all our moments at once, including seeing us dead. Seeing the death in us at every moment. They dont connect with that, they dont want to. Like us when we see horror stories about undead and we're supposed to just be scared of the undead. Seeing bodies, seeing Things not a whole actual person. Because those ones dont have the possibility of living a whole real life, not like the real people.
... the more I think about undead from a disability and illness perspective the more I think the creeptastic part is the rejection of them. There's a line people can cross and horror movies cease to see them as people. That line is having bodies too far outside the expected norm, being embodied in something that rots, needing other people in order to survive. That's just showing our workings though. Everyone needs.
Granted very few assault people to get those needs, that part needs working on.
It's the idea these visual signifiers put someone across the line between person and thing, while they still want and need and feel. That's a horror.
So these immortals in the dream, going around treating mortals as less of a person on the inside because they dont understand how to truly live... ugh, nope.
And if they live by always avoiding death... it's that Mencius quote by way of Duncan Macleod: I fear death, but there are things I fear more than death, therefore I do not always avoid danger. Ooh, wait, looked it up, it's *dislike*, not fear. That's different in two directions at once. Dislike death and it's not just your own death you flinch from.
Unlike these dream immortals.
Death before dishonor, says Highlander.
... these guys have discarded the concept of dishonor, in order to discard death.
This to me seems a thoroughly imperfect way to proceed.
Yet they believe themselves the Elect, the chosen few, the ones who have perfected themselves. They've seen all ends (within their chosen limits) and this is what they know about themselves and other people.
... I dislike this quite thoroughly.
They dont know what they would create by going down a path where they personally end.
And all of them were human? Not cyborgs or sushi or any sort of transhuman, not ascended beings or fuzzy lights, just humans.
Persisting.
Themselves forever.
That's one of those states of being that's so law bound it sounds like a hell.
Sure they're a sheaf of possibilities, but they're so much less than infinite possibility. They're just extended editions, not libraries with dance festivals.
They were also a very good reason to believe we were in the Matrix.
Not all of us, not them, but any life path where we could possibly end them would be less safe for them. Being in pods and unable to respond to true external conditions would be less safe for us, but hey, so it goes. The smart ones live forever... and that limits what the rest of us can do. Easier to do that if we're dreaming.
... which I was, obviously.
But still.
I woke up and talked myself into the very firm conviction that an acceptance of risk and even an acceptance of mortality as a possibility is a necessary part of living a full and creative life and connecting to other people.
Which is not a novel conviction, but is somewhat in contradiction of my usual approach, given the panic attacks etc.
But I'd rather have the infinite potential of a life that is going to run into risks and problems and eventual endings, than the limits that limitless length of days put on them.
... in theory at least.
In practice I'm staying home until I get a better idea.
But I'm going to think about it harder.
They had a different awareness of time than the rest of us, even speedsters. Something more like in Arrival, where all the moments had happened, but in a branching and multiple way. So they were aware of multiple timelines. And in every single one of them, these people lived literally forever.
And they were insufferable condescending pricks to the rest of us.
... okay, that's unfair, mostly they just ignored us. So etimes they set assignments. Andmonky one of them referred to us as lesser beings, but that was the general impression.
... were we just being over sensitive?
They didnt all think in lockstep. One of them talked to us to hand out an assignment but said we'd never understand their reasons unless we thought like them, understood their basic philosophy. Actually they mentioned their basic book and said we'd never understand it. So I went to a different one and said the book had been recommended to my attention, and that guy loaned it to me. So they thought differently.
But after that, I dont know if dream me even skim read it, which is frustrating if it's supposed to be a guide to living forever.
Instead I and Eobard Thawne sat next to a lake and talked the philosophy of time and what it would even mean to live that long. To have personal awareness of all of time.
Except it isnt all of time, it's all,of the timelines where they, personally, lived.
And Thawne of all people has a unique perspective on that one.
But thinking about it... it's like the ultimate in choosing safety over... anything, ever. They can perceive the branches where the choice leads to an ending, so even in the smallest ways, they dont choose those.
Which sounds super bland.
And explains why they send other people to do stuff.
But it seems like if they prioritise length of days, and length of days alone, they have to ignore all other measures. Like what they actually do with those days.
I've been thinking about this since I woke up, it's not all dream logic thining.
It's just, like, their philosophy book was very small, like A4 but slim, and they seemed to think that was the important thing? And someone that can remember all of every timeline they lived wouldnt need to keep books around... huh, rereading is a different experience for the rest of us, but they'd never read anything for the first time, all times would be one if they remembered them all already, they'd only have one opinion. Yikes. Hope that's wrong.
But also, there weren't many of them, and they seemed fine with that?
So I think their version of immortality broke their empathy.
Kind of like people who think health is a choice and ill people should just do better. This sort of immortal chose all the life paths that let them live, and they look around at people whose paths end in death, and cant make the leap to understanding that. That experience is so disconnected from their own. So they leave everyone else to their limited lives and perceive it as a failing in them.
... or if they could help someone without any risk to their own lives...
... since when is human interaction entirely without risk?
They couldnt or wouldnt empathise with people who make mortal choices, because empathy involves imagining oneself able to make the same choices. They know every choice they personally would make, and none of them are mortal. Broken empathy. So they cant build bridges from mortal perspectives to their own.
And also from their point of view they see dead people. Thawne sees people who have been dead for centuries and to him that means they might as well be dead right now. Error, say I. But these immortals who remember their whole lives, they'd see all our moments at once, including seeing us dead. Seeing the death in us at every moment. They dont connect with that, they dont want to. Like us when we see horror stories about undead and we're supposed to just be scared of the undead. Seeing bodies, seeing Things not a whole actual person. Because those ones dont have the possibility of living a whole real life, not like the real people.
... the more I think about undead from a disability and illness perspective the more I think the creeptastic part is the rejection of them. There's a line people can cross and horror movies cease to see them as people. That line is having bodies too far outside the expected norm, being embodied in something that rots, needing other people in order to survive. That's just showing our workings though. Everyone needs.
Granted very few assault people to get those needs, that part needs working on.
It's the idea these visual signifiers put someone across the line between person and thing, while they still want and need and feel. That's a horror.
So these immortals in the dream, going around treating mortals as less of a person on the inside because they dont understand how to truly live... ugh, nope.
And if they live by always avoiding death... it's that Mencius quote by way of Duncan Macleod: I fear death, but there are things I fear more than death, therefore I do not always avoid danger. Ooh, wait, looked it up, it's *dislike*, not fear. That's different in two directions at once. Dislike death and it's not just your own death you flinch from.
Unlike these dream immortals.
Death before dishonor, says Highlander.
... these guys have discarded the concept of dishonor, in order to discard death.
This to me seems a thoroughly imperfect way to proceed.
Yet they believe themselves the Elect, the chosen few, the ones who have perfected themselves. They've seen all ends (within their chosen limits) and this is what they know about themselves and other people.
... I dislike this quite thoroughly.
They dont know what they would create by going down a path where they personally end.
And all of them were human? Not cyborgs or sushi or any sort of transhuman, not ascended beings or fuzzy lights, just humans.
Persisting.
Themselves forever.
That's one of those states of being that's so law bound it sounds like a hell.
Sure they're a sheaf of possibilities, but they're so much less than infinite possibility. They're just extended editions, not libraries with dance festivals.
They were also a very good reason to believe we were in the Matrix.
Not all of us, not them, but any life path where we could possibly end them would be less safe for them. Being in pods and unable to respond to true external conditions would be less safe for us, but hey, so it goes. The smart ones live forever... and that limits what the rest of us can do. Easier to do that if we're dreaming.
... which I was, obviously.
But still.
I woke up and talked myself into the very firm conviction that an acceptance of risk and even an acceptance of mortality as a possibility is a necessary part of living a full and creative life and connecting to other people.
Which is not a novel conviction, but is somewhat in contradiction of my usual approach, given the panic attacks etc.
But I'd rather have the infinite potential of a life that is going to run into risks and problems and eventual endings, than the limits that limitless length of days put on them.
... in theory at least.
In practice I'm staying home until I get a better idea.
But I'm going to think about it harder.