Gwen as audience identification figure

[beccaelizabeth]

I was reading this about Gwen in Torchwood being unlikeable if she keeps shagging and lying next season. And it sort of mystifies me that someone could perceive that as a problem, because isn't it rather the point? We're not watching the good guys.

... right? It's not just me?

Torchwood lie, cover up, and mindwipe. They steal. They have tech that can save lives, help other people do their jobs, but they keep it to themselves. In Doctor Who they're clearly set up as the bad guys - they're enemies of the Doctor, and it's his universe. Team Torchwood are part of that. They're not the good guys at all.

So Gwen starts out as a regular cop, trying to help people, good intentions... and look where that goes, when she starts playing by Torchwood rules.

But it isn't just Torchwood that screws her up. She was lying to Rhys before that. Told him the murder wasn't anything to do with her. So she's got this nice cosy world at home, embodied in Rhys, and she's very attracted to it (and therefore him). But it's the kind of nice that happens because she can leave the job outside. Small Worlds, haven't transcribed it, but she was saying how it never followed her home before. She has this nice cosy island of happy and normal, and outside is where the bad things happen.

But it only works because Rhys is so entirely part of that cereal packet norm - if he starts understanding what's out in the dark that means bringing a bit of it home all the time.

Torchwood? New and sexy. Darker truths. Blood. People as meat. People as monsters. And Rhys can't understand that - must not, or it destroys his value for her as symbol of normal. But she's attracted to it, somehow. She wants Torchwood, wants what it can give her. Attracted to Owen, the bastard, the darkest of them.

So she shags both.

Okay.

Now... she's the audience?

She's the one that leads us in to this world?

Her existence is asking a question - why are *we* watching? Why are *we* attracted to this story? And which half, in the end, do we go home to - which half (or is it just half) is *real*?



Because there might not be aliens (maybe, probably) but there's problems out in the dark somewhere every day. Leave problems at work and go home to something else. Be glad there's cops and docs and social workers and go sit and watch TV for a while; all that's just fiction and we don't have to care.

And there obviously aren't secret government sponsored groups out there, watching our every move on CCTV, keeping things from us for our own good. So we don't have to worry about that part.

Right?



... or, you know, it's about a bunch of brave yet outnumbered heroic types trying to hold back the alien invaders. But somehow I have a lot more trouble putting that read onto this show ...


*shrugs*

Comments

[damalan.livejournal.com]

I am inclined to say that Torchwood are the good guys - as good as they can be in a world where they have few checks on their abuses and almost no-one understanding what they have to deal with. It's morally corrosive and it shows. That's Gwen's point when she's first introduced: they've been corrupted by their work and forgotten their actual mandate.

But much of this has been distorted by a poor choice of scripts that - far too often - makes Torchwood the guilty party cleaning up its messes. Face it: it began with Doctor Who Season 2 finale. Torchwood are crass and careless in their research; I think it just got stuck in the producers' minds. I hope that Torchwood Season 2 rises above this to show a better side to the organisation.

Now, as for Gwen: she has to evolve in the second season too. She was our introit to Torchwood Three in Season One, and we watched as she struggled with the balancing act of working for a secret organisation. In Season Two she has to be more than that. And she has to find a way to deal with the need to lie to Rhys. After all others manage successfully to do that in our security services so it isn't impossible. She can remind Torchwood of its mandate (to protect the subjects of the British Empire from aliens) without being sanctimonious and hypocritical. At least I hope that the writers can rise to do that. Because if she can't be so written she's going to go from annoying to destructive to the series.

Ermmm... my thoughts are wandering a bit now. I'd better leave it here. :-)

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

It's an illegal organization. How can it have a better side?

[damalan.livejournal.com]

See that I can't agree with. The Torchwood Institute is a legitimate organisation, founded by the command of Queen Victoria. It just lies outside all the normal channels of the state. But it's certainly not a criminal organisation in the fashion of Murder, Inc., or an illegal outgrowth of a legitimate intelligence agency.

If it can live up to the original mandate it was given, then it fights the good fight. Because as Doctor Who has demonstrated, there are aliens out there with malign interest in humanity. And here are humans who would cheerfully sell out the human race, or abuse alien technology for their own tyrannical ends. The Torchwood Institute isn't nice, but then what it fights against doesn't play nice either...

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that I still can't quite wrap my head around British constitutional politics, but I can't see how in the 21st century Torchwood isn't beyond the legitimate limits of royal power under Britain's famed unwritten constitution.

And if the Torchwood Institute is legal, then it represents the best anti-monarchy argument I've ever seen.

[damalan.livejournal.com]

Oh I doubt that an organisation like the Torchwood Institute could actually exist in our world. it would have been absorbed into the civil service long ago. But our world doesn't face an alien threat that has actually harmed humanity - in the Whoverse it's happened many times.

I think we've seen a skewed representation of the Institute - we've seen too many screw-ups and not enough successes. Then again many successes are - like those of the security services - invisible because they involve preventing something happening. I think it's these that allow the Torchwood Institute to continue functioning. It does something no one else does (or rather only UNIT also does - and Torchwood was there first).

If you can't buy into that premise then I suspect the whole concept makes no sense, and Gwen's mission ludicrous...

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

But our world doesn't face an alien threat that has actually harmed humanity

That we know about, which seems to be the point: Torchwood works in secret. The ability of the humans (or perhaps just the British people?) to rationalize away the alien seems to rival even that of Sunnydale, at least in new Who.

But that doesn't respond to my question, which is whether a secret governmental organization that routinely ignores the civil liberties of the British subjects (such as they might be under the unwritten constitution) and answers only to the Sovereign (if even to her) is constitutional (and I honestly don't know, because the whole concept of an unwritten constitution makes no sense to me). If not, the organization is illegal, and its members are criminals. No?

But my reading was always that H.I.M. Victoria was overstepping her authority.

The show makes perfect sense to me--as an illustration as to how dangerous secret organizations without proper democratic oversight can be. Gwen's mission, and everything else alongside it, seems to follow naturally from that premise. Indeed, the show has struck me as being surprisingly thematically consistent in portraying its characters in this light (with some odd interludes, like "Small Worlds"). So I wouldn't call anything about the show "ludicrous."

Which is a breath of fresh air after so many shows which seem to glorify organizations like Torchwood....

[beccaelizabeth]

*nods*

[burntcopper.livejournal.com]

:cough: er, one thing about Britain. Ever heard of the Official Secrets act? or some of our more draconian laws? Under certain circumstances we have no civil liberties.

We have no constitution. If it's government-mandated it's legal. If it says in the charter that it only answers to the crown? It only answers to the crown. She's the monarch. It's impossible for her to overstep her authority.

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

*nods*

But then Torchwood simply reads as an anti-monarchist argument, which isn't a substantially different reading....

Then again, even to this clueless American, this seems like an oversimplified reading of British constitutional politics. I know there are supposed limits to the Sovereign's authority. She's not allowed in the House of Commons, for one, and -- ahem -- can be tried and executed for treason by Parliament.

If it's government-mandated it's legal.

Mu understanding is there's a distinction between the Crown and her Government. Elizabeth is Head of State and rules Britain (and Canada and Australia and....); Blair/Harriet Jones/Whoever is Head of Government and runs the government, which means that Torchwood isn't government-mandated, but state-mandated.

Indeed, it can't be government-mandated; Harriet Jones wasn't even supposed to know that it existed, if you remember.

It may be a distinction without a difference, but then, above about Torchwood simply reading as anti-monarchist.

[beccaelizabeth]

Torchwood simply reading as anti-monarchist.

bad wolf



... in my head that comment makes sense on it's own, because with them being maybe werewolves and possibly bad
but then it's asking questions about if Rose did the right thing
and really, if you can't kill Daleks, who can you kill?

[beccaelizabeth]

I'm always fuzzy on what the monarch can do because there was that thing with the decapitation.

[beccaelizabeth]

UNIT does it with international cooperation and political oversight.
Torchwood does it with the intent of empire and answering to no one.

Torchwood represents the bad old days in this.

[beccaelizabeth]

The Torchwood Institute isn't nice, but then what it fights against doesn't play nice either...

which logic leads to the whole "fight monsters by becoming them" deal, which would be the problem

[beccaelizabeth]

Torchwood of its mandate (to protect the subjects of the British Empire from aliens)

The Torchwood motto is "If it's alien, it's ours."
They make no distinction between bad alien and good alien - as demonstrated via the single alien presented as most heroic good in the 'verse, the Doctor.
They shoot down aliens for violating Earth's airspace and then strip the ships.

That isn't about 'protect', that's about 'loot'.

If there was an organisation dedicated to "protect the subjects of the British Empire from muslims" then that's clearly wrong. Protect from a group, not the actions thereof.
It don't get less wrong if the word is 'aliens'.

They're xenophobic bastards, the worst traditions, with a splash of imperial can-do on the side that thinks they can get away with it despite repeated stompings. They're pure trouble.

And they answer to a Queen that may very well be a werewolf, making the whole enterprise utterly hypocritical.



"remind Torchwood of its mandate" is not a useful mission, because the mission was screwed up from the start.

"rewrite Torchwood's mandate so it's more like police work" *is* useful, and is what Jack seems to be doing.

Gwen, otoh, keeps saying 'human' as if it were the source of all value, which makes her an unlikely source for change. She treats aliens as "you lot" at the start of the series, reckons they all come here to enslave and invade, and we don't see her change her mind about that.

It's like she's the everyday prejudice of the average person, unthinking, leaving room for the other (pointy, painful) sort to exist.


YMMV
... and obviously does
because you're reading it as a hero story.

If it was UNIT it would be - but UNIT has several important differences, like chain of command, political oversight, and listening to advice. Still had flaws, the Doctor was never best pleased at how eager they were to shoot stuff, but it had more balance.
Torchwood? Tells off the Prime Minister. There is no balance there.
And which lot nearly destroy the world the most?

[(Anonymous)]

I am not sure there's much to discuss here since it seems like we aren't watching the same programme; but I will take a shot at it.

I can assure you that protecting the Empire from alien forces was the original mandate because RTD made sure we saw Queen Victoria state this as the aim of a Torchwood Institute. I think you read the wrong tone into 'If it's alien, it's ours'. It's Jack's pithy summary of the Torchwood mandate. The Torchwood Institute becomes involved whenever alien influence or action is involved in a situation. They also claim any and all alien technology that they find.

They do not destroy every alien they come across, nor rip it off for equipment. Remember their response to a UFO over Cardigan Bay? They told it to leave, because it was scaring people. Likewise, there're a couple of hundred Weevils living in Cardiff's sewers. Torchwood Three is content to leave them in peace, only becoming involved when one goes rogue and starts attacking humans (something which might have been related to Episode 11, Combat). So they do seem capable of considering action, not just lumping all aliens together. They aren't xenophobic, but their responsibility means they must be suspicious.

On the matter of the Doctor, it's part of their original mandate that they look out for him. It's pure prejudice there, because Queen Victoria regarded the Doctor as an agent of chaos and instability. But it's also something that RTD's stories have attempted to show: that from the outside, the Doctor is pretty frightening, because he sweeps into situations - often crises - acts, and then vanishes again. He doesn't explain what he's doing and he generally avoids locals. He gets lumped into the bad things just by being present. We as the viewer know he's the hero, and we're meant to root for him, but if we only saw him as those about, I think we'd have a far worse opinion.

I agree that the Torchwood Institute suffers from having no effective oversight. But then I see that as part of the story - decent people doing bad things because of institutional bias. That makes Torchwood interesting to me, and following Gwen at least partly worthwhile, because she can remind them what they are supposed to be doing. From my point of view, your reading - where the Institute is rotten ab initio - sort of makes her involvement rather pointless, and indeed the series pretty empty too: when Bad People Do Bad Things to Outsiders.

I hope this makes sense, and doesn't come across as an attack. It's just that your reading is so at odds to mine, like I said, it feels like we're watching different programmes. :)

[damalan.livejournal.com]

Oops, that was me not logged in! :)

[beccaelizabeth]

I hope this makes sense, and doesn't come across as an attack. It's just that your reading is so at odds to mine, like I said, it feels like we're watching different programmes. :)
I been getting that feeling, yes.
And it isn't an attack as long as it just refers to the text.


I think part of the difference is that what you're attributing to Torchwood I'm attributing to Jack - I'm figuring TW3 does things different because Jack is in charge. Also when I say Torchwood I mostly mean 1 and you seem to mostly mean 3, so we're not even talking about the same thing. If a friendly message and a wave is how TW1 usually dealt with aliens too then I'm simply wrong. But iirc TW1 talked about shooting things for violating airspace - not doing anything once they got there, just being there. (iir incorectly then again I'm wrong)

The Doctor worked with UNIT for years, so it isn't just the viewers that consider him one of the good guys.

If Torchwood were bad from the start then what they need to do is realise it and turn around and do different. Or possibly have it all come crashing down, depending on if they're after the mass tragedy ending, but they already did that with TW1. Cautionary tale, sort of thing. More Horror than SF. Maybe.


The thing is, I believe that ignorance is the root of all badness, and mindwipe is therefore inherently and without exception bad. Ignorance is poison and Torchwood are in the business of poisoning the public.
Torchwood-the-organisation apparently think ignorance is bliss.
The two beliefs get in a big fight, because there really is no middle ground there.
Torchwood-the-show I can read as illustrating the two beliefs fightings, most obviously in Gwen's love life, where cosy ignorance at home doesn't actually lead to bliss at all.

other people, other readings

[damalan.livejournal.com]

I don't think I have anything more to add to this discussion. But I will say that thinking about it has given me my first ever Doctor Who / Captain Jack dream! (No, nothing smutty, just funny seeing Doctor Number 10 being upstaged in the White House by Jack!) :)

[beccaelizabeth]

:-)

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

From my point of view, your reading - where the Institute is rotten ab initio - sort of makes her involvement rather pointless, and indeed the series pretty empty too: when Bad People Do Bad Things to Outsiders.

Gwen's involvement in this series is absolutely crucial under my reading, I think, because she enters from a position outside that ab initio evil, so that it's not just when Bad People Do Bad Things to Outsiders, but when Being Above the Rules Makes Good People Do Bad Things. We see the process of her being corrupted, of her turning away from Rhys and towards Owen. That's what makes the show About Something, IMO.

(Although in the current political situation, a show about Why Effective Oversight is Important certainly seems to be called for in and of itself, IMO.)

Which isn't to say that I think that Owen and Ianto and Jack and Tosh are the bad guys. They're more innocent than anything else, I think--they don't understand the true weight of what we're doing. Owen thinks he would never rape someone, but didn't think out the ramnifications of what he was doing in 1x01. To Tosh, breaking into CCTV records is business as usual, not a horrible infringement of civil liberties. And so on. Ultimately, their position will have to lead to tragedy or enlightenment. And in some small ways, already has lead to tragedy and/or enlightenment, as in "Cyberwoman."

Personally, I don't think Gwen will be the agent of that change, but I do think it will have to be someone from outside Torchwood.

Even Suzie is simply someone who cracked under the stress, rather than being intrinsically evil. But that makes it worse: Suzie was a good person, and look what Torchwood did to her. That's what it'll do Gwen if she isn't careful, the show seems to be saying to me.

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

as demonstrated via the single alien presented as most heroic good in the 'verse, the Doctor.

It is true that the show has managed to problematize that point, though. After all, the Doctor's flaws and Torchwood's are fundamentally the same--they're both ubermensch--which perhaps makes their butting heads inevitable?

And they answer to a Queen that may very well be a werewolf, making the whole enterprise utterly hypocritical.

I completly didn't think of that angle. Good point!

YMMV
... and obviously does
because you're reading it as a hero story.

Our reading is still the minority report in fandom, no? I don't follow the fandom-at-large well enough to be able to tell. You read fanfic, though, so you probably have a better sense than me.

[beccaelizabeth]

minority requires thinking in maths and figuring out the opinions of lurkers. *big shrugs*

fanfic thus far is mostly about sex, suicide and self harm
it's getting to the point where I'm :eyeroll: about all three
and while I'm not stopping reading fic, the author's I'll risk are more limited than they were all of six weeks ago when I started reading in this fandom.

part of why I really wish some more people would start writing actual plot is because of the shortage of stories digging in to actual issues

but then I always feel like that about fanfic, so *sigh*



Problematised the Doctor is, and much more fun for it
plus there's this compare/contrast with Torchwood built right in.

Royal werewolves would be much fun.

[beccaelizabeth]

and now my comments have embarrassing grammar mistakes.
*sulk* at LJ for not having an edit button.

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, yes.

Her existence is asking a question - why are *we* watching? Why are *we* attracted to this story? And which half, in the end, do we go home to - which half (or is it just half) is *real*?

You put that so beautifully.

[beccaelizabeth]

:-)

[athousandwinds.livejournal.com]

I think one of the reasons why people react so badly to Gwen is that her sins are much closer to home.

Owen drugs a girl - this is also close to home and people reacted accordingly, but at the same time Owen was a) clearly morally dubious from the start and b) never intended to be the viewpoint character. Tosh hacks into CCTV and databases - well, how many people do any of us know who can do that? It puts her at one remove. Ianto betrays Torchwood to save the woman he loves - it's a grand, overblown situation that none of us are ever likely to be in. Jack isn't quite human/is from the 51st century, they do things differently there/has an unashamedly murky past.

Gwen, on the other hand, is the character we're all supposed to identify with, the Everywoman. She's ordinary - she could be us! And then she does things which, while probably less heinous than anything the others have done, resonate badly: she cheats on her boyfriend, she lies to him and drugs him. And she is presented as a sympathetic character throughout, which makes it even more jarring.