Languages and gender

[beccaelizabeth]

So I was thinking Torchwood lines in my head
and thinking how there isn't a correct way to refer to someone in a sentence without knowing their gender
because 'they' isn't correct (I get told) and so you need he or she

except, that's in English
and also there are other words sometimes used
a bit new and not generally agreed on maybe, but existing

but I was wondering about other languages

specifically Welsh and Japanese, most relevant for the scene I had in mind

Jack's first language might be English - the whole universe speaks English, and there's all this TV that might, possibly, keep the language pinned down a bit - but it won't be the same English because people keep needing to use it for new things. The way there's words in use for bloke-that-fathered-this-child that is not the word for husband or boyfriend or even ex, because the relevant relationship is still existing. Language gets shaped by what people need to use it for. So the language in Jack's head would be shaped by whatever his culture uses it for.

So now I'm vaguely poking at language, and realising I don't have the tools. So I ask the internets in general.
... only so vaguely I'm not even sure *what* I'm asking.


Maybe... if Ianto or Tosh were talking to their parents about their new lover, how easy would it be to play the pronoun game if they weren't speaking English? It's a bit obvious in English even. So they'd be talking about a special someone... can they say someone in a neutral way?

I don't know. My thoughts are vague and fuzzy.

Comments

[puritybrown.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't know about Welsh (I imagine, being a Celtic and therefore Indo-European language, it would have the usual male/female pronouns), but while Japanese does have gendered pronouns, they're not used that much. It's more typical not to use pronouns at all, just to use names, and since a lot of Japanese names are unisex and it's common to refer to and address people with surnames even when you know them quite well, it's relatively easy to disguise a person's gender. (I've seen this quirk of the language exploited to good effect in yaoi manga -- though the English translations are usually very awkward, because English just doesn't work like that.)

[beccaelizabeth]

nifty new knowledge.

[ryttu3k.livejournal.com]

Jack's first language might be English - the whole universe speaks English

Oh... I disagree. He definitely speaks English in TW, but probably would have to by neccesity. He speaks English in doing his cons in DW, but it doesn't mean it's his first. Remember, he's born three thousand years into the future. Now, what was 'English' like three thousand years into the PAST?

Hell, English isn't even a common language in my NaNo, and that's set only a thousand years into the future! (There are a few lingua francas - for the Three Worlds, which is Terra, Mars and Venus, there's Neo-Latin, and for the bulk of Europe, there's Eurolingua, which mixes Germanic, Romance, Scandinavian and Slavic languages together. I imagine it'd be similar to Esperanto, actually. In this particular galaxy, too, there's a lingua franca for each of the systems represented by the Sector governments, too, and a diplomatic/political language for communication between Sectors.)

Oh, and as for the universe speaking English... nah ;) That's just the TARDIS. "Gets inside your head, translates alien languages." For all we know, the Doctor could have been speaking Gallifreyan all this time, five billion languages and all ;)

(For a good example of the languages thing, actually, see the Pertwee serial - The Mind Of Evil. Meeting a Chinese delegate, he guesses the man's place of origin from his name and speaks the appropriate language. And later, he does it again. Nice and fluent and the Brig got all frustrated XD)

Incidentally, I just realised - saying that the Doctor speaks 'Gallifreyan' is a bit dumb. I'd assume this'd have to be a Gallifreyan lingua franca, since it's silly to assume there's one language for an entire planet. But presumedly, there'd be one language for use amongst other parts of the planet/galaxy/universe/space and time. On the other hand, the Gallifreyan languages probably would have the proper personal pronouns to refer to future and past versions of yourself... *giggles at The Three Doctors*

Uh, sorry. I can't help, but I do like rattling on about languages.

[beccaelizabeth]

sorry, messed up the formatting in orignal post:
(sarcasm) the whole universe speaks English (/sarcasm)
;-)

I like the idea of Gallifreyan pronoun complications

The only factor that would be different about the future is that there's no reason they couldn't be watching the same films, TV, music etc etc that we've recorded all through the 20th century, which might put an anchor on lannguage, so to speak. But yeah, long times = large changes, especially if circumstances change too.

Also if the world goes boom and repopulates from a small number of survivors they might end up monolingual. Just as one possibility.



I was having vague thoughts about why telepaths have language. And the Doctor is telepathic, but he still usually talks to himself. But then the time travel thing might make information restriction somewhat important sometimes, to avoid paradox.

... plus, you know, has to say things out loud so the audience can hear him.


... I think I go sleep now.

[ryttu3k.livejournal.com]

Oops ;) (Can I plead Aspie? XD)

All good points. Although humanity keeps spreading and... intermingling, doesn't it? So that would mix other languages in and stuff. There probably would be use for a lingua franca (I just love saying it! Lingua franca lingua franca lingua franca...), but if anything, the pool of languages would INcrease, not DEcrease. I mean, in Australia ALONE, in the late 18th century, there were up to 750 Indigenous Australian languages! (Now there's only 200, and all but 20 are highly endangered *sigh*)

XD Heeee. The Australian English article on Wiki makes note that Australians swear a bunch. Fuck yeah!

But. Yes.

Incidentally, the Doctor wouldn't be considered to be THAT telepathic. As in, he actually would have to apply it, it isn't, like, an automatic process. Or something. I know what I mean!

[msp-hacker.livejournal.com]

I looked up Welsh, and it does exactly what puritybrown said, with the masculine/feminine pronouns and no gender-nuetral pronouns as all nouns are gendered. (But it does use the feminine pronoun for constructions like "it's raining") It's somewhat difficult to play the pronoun game in Romance languages, so I'm guessing it would be just as difficult in Welsh.

Though I've put a lot of thought into what exactly Jack speaks, and that's lots of fun. Mostly because while I've not put any words down, I've thought a lot on the subject of pronouns in that language, and whether or not it's just come from Earth or it's borrowed from constructs from alien cultures.

But while "they" isn't technically correct, it's a better word to use than "he" or the clumsy "she or he" when speaking of someone of an unknown gender. IMHO, of someone who it a bit anti-Strucker and White's.

[beccaelizabeth]

*nods*